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Thread: OK, Which is it ..? Unlawful or All ?

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    OK, Which is it ..? Unlawful or All ?

    I had to do a mandatory WorkSource class today (Auburn on I street). Upon arrival, at the front of the building are the "NO WEAPONS" signs. When I get to the door they have the three signs posted. I CC'd since I did not want to interfere with my Unemployment Class. At one point during the class I had to lean over to get my backpack and the girl next to me changed seats (my shirt rose up and changed me to OC). Everything we did today was in the public space of the building. At anytime someone from the street could walk into the classroom or into the cubicle.

    It looks as if they are trying to confuse folks that they are off-limits by posting the two signs together. Somewhere I have the contact for someone on this issue and will get communication started.

    Last edited by Bill Starks; 08-29-2013 at 03:55 PM.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    The Marysville police station has a no firearm allowed on their front door of the public access, and they quote 9.41.300. We need some prewritten forms here that we can just fill in the agencies name and print and mail. I'm not good with writing legal stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    The Marysville police station has a no firearm allowed on their front door of the public access, and they quote 9.41.300. We need some prewritten forms here that we can just fill in the agencies name and print and mail. I'm not good with writing legal stuff.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

    (8) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.
    Huh. Who wants to leave their firearm at a LEA while conducting business there? That sounds like a good idea. Not.

    As far as the WorkSource offices go, they obviously are wrong. Even if you went w/o a gun (inconceivable!) you'd still be in there with a dangerous weapon- your brain.
    Last edited by mikeyb; 08-29-2013 at 05:14 PM.

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    So you gonna OC there? Maybe bring in a copy of the law?
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    That intimidating a public servant thing could also be dangerous if subjectively interpreted.

    You know and I know that intimidation requires an overt act and usually intent, but for cops or bureaucrats who can't figure out that cameras are legal? That could cause big trouble. Someone feels irrationally intimidated, and suddenly it's a felony arrest.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That intimidating a public servant thing could also be dangerous if subjectively interpreted................................ Someone feels irrationally intimidated, and suddenly it's a felony arrest.
    This may explain the grouping of signs. No Guns, Don't intimidate me, No Guns('cept legal ones)
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Some posts about previous encounters, read 4 and 13:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...amily-friendly!
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    I had to do a mandatory WorkSource class today (Auburn on I street). Upon arrival, at the front of the building are the "NO WEAPONS" signs. When I get to the door they have the three signs posted. I CC'd since I did not want to interfere with my Unemployment Class. At one point during the class I had to lean over to get my backpack and the girl next to me changed seats (my shirt rose up and changed me to OC). Everything we did today was in the public space of the building. At anytime someone from the street could walk into the classroom or into the cubicle.

    It looks as if they are trying to confuse folks that they are off-limits by posting the two signs together. Somewhere I have the contact for someone on this issue and will get communication started.

    Interesting the two signs yes. It seems they feel that the mere presence of a firearm, is "intimidating"? No?

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    I had to do a mandatory WorkSource class today (Auburn on I street). Upon arrival, at the front of the building are the "NO WEAPONS" signs. When I get to the door they have the three signs posted. I CC'd since I did not want to interfere with my Unemployment Class. At one point during the class I had to lean over to get my backpack and the girl next to me changed seats (my shirt rose up and changed me to OC). Everything we did today was in the public space of the building. At anytime someone from the street could walk into the classroom or into the cubicle.

    It looks as if they are trying to confuse folks that they are off-limits by posting the two signs together. Somewhere I have the contact for someone on this issue and will get communication started.

    Interesting the two signs yes. It seems they feel that the mere presence of a firearm, is "intimidating"? No?

    Oh, missed that first sign... "UNLAWFUL POSSESSION Prohibited" Hum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That intimidating a public servant thing could also be dangerous if subjectively interpreted.

    You know and I know that intimidation requires an overt act and usually intent, but for cops or bureaucrats who can't figure out that cameras are legal? That could cause big trouble. Someone feels irrationally intimidated, and suddenly it's a felony arrest.
    They pulled that crap on me the 5th time I showed up for an appointment to take my motorcycle test and no one was there to give me the test. I told them to make the call they declined. Does that count for intimidating a citizen. BTW if you run over all five cones rather than weave in between them they only deduct 5 points, LOL I wish I had a video of that.
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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    That intimidating a public servant thing could also be dangerous if subjectively interpreted.

    You know and I know that intimidation requires an overt act and usually intent, but for cops or bureaucrats who can't figure out that cameras are legal? That could cause big trouble. Someone feels irrationally intimidated, and suddenly it's a felony arrest.

    Someone was already charged with it.

    I'll let that person come forward, if they choose to. Their call, not mine.
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    This is what I posted back in 2010:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...weapons-policy

    I have something useful to convey that may affect people who OC.

    Within the last 2 months I attended a Employment Security Department seminar on workplace safety at a state WorkSource Center. No, I won't say which one. Not that it matters since this training is being conducted at all WorkSource Centers in WA. The topic came up regarding the no weapons policy that's written on a warning notice on all external doors. Some guy at the meeting asked the instructor about open carry and how that affects the WorkSource Center. The instructor replied that they won't allow any guns, period. He made it clear by his response that this is just the way it is and that the inquiry was over.

    The worker persisted in his questioning and what happened next may be of interest to you. I wrote down the instructors response as best I could.

    The worker tried to point out that according to the article he read, the restrictions on OC only applies to a jail & ... : that's when the instructor cut him off. He said the policy is this, no matter what the Employment Security Department won't allow guns OC or CC on the premises. He said that TPTB know it may not be legal but will take the chance of getting sued rather than allow guns in their buildings. His comment made it clear that they don't care about following the law. The instructor then said that no one inside of a WorkSouce building can ever tolerate any weapon. He then gave the example of what we should do if someone walked in with a gun showing (or CC); call the police on sight. This is official policy.

    In the booklet we were given there was this:

    RCW 9.41.270
    Prohibited: weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm - unlawful carrying or handling - penalty - exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests in intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    This is all I have to share.

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    Typical guberment response ... I had one official saying that I could not enter an admin hearing chamber. Guess what? I brushed him aside and entered. He called cops. Cops came. Cops said I had to leave. Told cops to drop dead. Cops knew I had a right to be there....they left. I stayed.

    Let them push you around ... it emboldens them to act even more so.

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    Those signs are lawful because; 1. They are banning unlawful possession of a weapon and 2. A firearm is not listed as a dangerous weapon under state law so the sign on the right applies to sand clubs, brass knuckles etc etc. So if it is lawful for you to own a firearm you can carry open or if you have a CPL you can carry concealed.

    Of course the problem is most people do not know the law and will automatically think the weapons parts applies to firearms.
    Last edited by Jeff Hayes; 09-01-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    The Marysville police station has a no firearm allowed on their front door of the public access, and they quote 9.41.300. We need some prewritten forms here that we can just fill in the agencies name and print and mail. I'm not good with writing legal stuff.
    What's funny about the Marysville Police Station is that the "Public Area" is about the size of a bathroom and the clerks are behind bullet resistant glass. You have to transact business through a drawer.

    What are they worried about?

    Last time I was printed there for a CPL you DID have to go into a "secure area". An area where prisoners could be present and thus restricted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    What's funny about the Marysville Police Station is that the "Public Area" is about the size of a bathroom and the clerks are behind bullet resistant glass. You have to transact business through a drawer.

    What are they worried about?

    Last time I was printed there for a CPL you DID have to go into a "secure area". An area where prisoners could be present and thus restricted.
    Its like they know that they are going to screw you and need the glass ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Its like they know that they are going to screw you and need the glass ....
    What do you mean GOING to screw you by the time you get the glass you have already been done.
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    So is no one going to sue WS? Seems like they refuse to obey State Preemption and will twist the law to their views. If this has been an ongoing issue, then hit them where it hurts and call it done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    So is no one going to sue WS? Seems like they refuse to obey State Preemption and will twist the law to their views. If this has been an ongoing issue, then hit them where it hurts and call it done.
    Sue them for what, the signs follow state law to the tee. The only way they can be sued is for someone to get arrested for carrying and I doubt that will happen.
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    Seems like they refuse to obey State Preemption and will twist the law to their views.


    Preemption? They're a state agency. .290 doesn't apply to them. Or are you referring to the highest preemption statute, the state constitution?

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    Wait..what?! Now I'm confused: There IS an issue here about a STATE AGENCY banning weapons in a STATE Building, correct? So doesn't Constitutional preemption affect them if they are refusing weapons on the premises? Has anyone notified whomever it is in charge of the State Worksource that this is happening, and that it's going against state preemption law? At least, from what I see everyone's saying that's what's happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Preemption? They're a state agency. .290 doesn't apply to them. Or are you referring to the highest preemption statute, the state constitution?[/COLOR]
    A State agency can not make law and as far as I know they must follow state law so they are left with making rules which I do not see any rules posted.

    The first sign on the left allows lawful weapons since it only says unlawful weapons are prohibited.

    The middle sign is just there for the intimidation factor it is very hard to meet the legal requirements of intimidating a public servant and if you go that far then you may want to review your conduct anyway.

    The third sign prohibits any and all dangerous weapons since a firearm is not a dangerous weapon unless it is furtively carried, firearms are allowed especially an openly carried firearm since that would be the opposite of furtively carried.

    RCW 9.41.250
    Dangerous weapons Penalty.

    (1) Every person who:

    (a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife;

    (b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol, or other dangerous weapon; or

    (c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm unless the suppressor is legally registered and possessed in accordance with federal law,

    is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

    (2) "Spring blade knife" means any knife, including a prototype, model, or other sample, with a blade that is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement. A knife that contains a spring, detent, or other mechanism designed to create a bias toward closure of the blade and that requires physical exertion applied to the blade by hand, wrist, or arm to overcome the bias toward closure to assist in opening the knife is not a spring blade knife.
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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Issue resolved -

    Mr. Starks,
    Thank you for your patience and understanding. I have received guidance from our state office and Im pleased to say we only intend to ban unlawful possession and are removing the one sign.

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

    Respectfully,

    Albert

    Albert Garza l Administrator, Employment Security Department, WorkSource Auburn/Renton
    2707 I Street NE, Auburn, WA. 98002 l 253.804.1155 l 253.350.4572 cell

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Thanks Bill, good work!

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