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Thread: Here I go thinking out loud again.

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Here I go thinking out loud again.

    In my efforts to bring the City of Henderson around, this occurred to me.

    Clark County ordinance:
    12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.

    Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication.


    In lieu of any other definitions, the plain language of the code does not give the Sheriff the authority to set standards of registration that are more than the plain language of the code.

    The code simply says that you must appear with your firearm. It does not say you must even show it to them, let them handle it, or run the serial number. It certainly does not give the Sheriff the authority to run a BG check on you.

    What if a person walks into Metro, with the firearm as required. Hands them a letter stating that you are there in compliance with the code to register. Maybe have a picture of the firearm for their files, (what the hell give them the serial number just in case it is stolen), the letter containing your name and address. No ID is required by the code either.

    Of course document it with video and audio that you made the good faith effort to register.

    Hmmmm!

    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 08-30-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    In my efforts to bring the City of Henderson around, this occurred to me.

    Clark County ordinance:
    12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.

    Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication.


    In lieu of any other definitions, the plain language of the code does not give the Sheriff the authority to set standards of registration that are more than the plain language of the code.

    The code simply says that you must appear with your firearm. It does not say you must even show it to them, let them handle it, or run the serial number. It certainly does not give the Sheriff the authority to run a BG check on you.

    What if a person walks into Metro, with the firearm as required. Hands them a letter stating that you are there in compliance with the code to register. Maybe have a picture of the firearm for their files, (what the hell give them the serial number just in case it is stolen), the letter containing your name and address. No ID is required by the code either.

    Of course document it with video and audio that you made the good faith effort to register.

    Hmmmm!

    TBG
    Reply to my own post, that's cool.

    1. receiving title to a pistol, does this include revolvers?

    2. whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, does this "other" mean theft? I can't think of anything else as inheritance is a gift also.

    3. within seventy-two hours of such receipt, does this include holidays? Weekends? Or just business days?

    4. and with licensed dealers, Does this include people who are licensed to street vend ice cream?

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Re: Here I go thinking out loud again.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Reply to my own post, that's cool.

    1. receiving title to a pistol, does this include revolvers?

    2. whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, does this "other" mean theft? I can't think of anything else as inheritance is a gift also.

    3. within seventy-two hours of such receipt, does this include holidays? Weekends? Or just business days?

    4. and with licensed dealers, Does this include people who are licensed to street vend ice cream?

    TBG
    I like the way you think!

    To add:

    1) What does the "title" to a firearm look like? There's sales receipts and owner's manuals...oh and registration cards if you buy new and sometimes used.

    2) I thought inheritance was viewed separately from gift. That's what I get for running low on caffeine.

    3) Are those seventy-two hours governed by hours of operation of the registration office or calendar days?

    4) That there's funnny!

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    Looks like you can make your own though and be outside of the rule !

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    I just went through registration "Hell" last week. hear our my letters to the county commissioners etc.

    I do not think the pictures will load on here so sorry in advance for the formatting:

    Hello Elected Officials, and Firearms Coalition personnel.

    I enjoyed the gun show over the weekend, and did my part for the economy and purchased some items, I took a firearm frame, and complete firearm to the W. Cheyenne Area command for METRO and attempted to comply with Clark County Registration. I was quickly dismissed, and told to come back with a complete firearm. I tried to negotiate with the Clerk at the window, Stating that the frame is the firearm, as I had to obtain a background check to possess it, and if I were prohibited, I would be jailed for possessing the frame. One firearm I was attempting to register was a FNH FNP Serial number 61CZZXXXXX, It is a polymer based pistol, very similar to this one listed for sale on the internet, I highlighted some of the points I would like to make:

    Source of this example: http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=frame
    Description for Item # 362136282



    This is a BRAND NEW complete lower receiver/frame with all parts from a Gen 3 Glock 19/23, which shares the same frame as models G19, G23, G32. (COMPACT 9MM .40 .357) It will accept the Glock slides from the Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 series of the before listed models. Or purchase an Advantage arms 22lr conversion kit for a dedicated 22lr.(see my other listings for those). This is a serialized part and is considered a firearm so it has to be shipped to a FFL for transfer. Be sure you can receive this to your state before bidding. Shipping is $15 to your FFL. NO frame sales to CA,MA, or elsewhere prohibited ( unless you are an FFL holder). Cashier's check, money order, CREDIT / DEBIT USERS ADD 3.75% TO TOTAL PRICE

    Pictures for Item # 362136282

    1:GLOCK 19 23 32 COMPLETE FRAME NEW GEN 3 9 40 357

    As you can see this is not your grandfathers .38 revolver, firearms have been transforming, Changing drastically since registration was instituted in Clark County. I was informed at the area command that my pistol has to have a barrel, as they have to measure it. The problem is this, barrels come in many different configurations, And Calibers. If I were to register, in one configuration, would I risk arrest, and confiscation,by simply switching barrels slides Etc. Why else would these parts need to be registered?

    The amount of interchangeable parts available for firearms have exploded, and having one serial numbered frame capable of performing many functions, has been the newest thing. Firearm companys market this fact relentlessly. Look at the available parts here that fit on theframe above: http://www.gunbroker.com/Gun-Parts/B...s=barrel+Glock

    I am not aware of any law prohibiting me from changing my stainless slide for a blue steel slide, or changing my .40 caliber barrel for a 9 mm. one. The number of the firearm is the only part that is illegal to tamper with, and in my thinking should be the only item registered. Anything else is subjective and could lead to problems as it did for me today.

    I read the Clark County Ordinance that governs registration, I will provide it here:

    12.04.110 Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.permanent link to this piece of content
    Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication.


    I Bolded the area that I consider to be my responsibility, and highlighted what I believe to be the Sheriff's part. In my numerous conversations with METRO today, one consistancy that rang true through the ranks was that 'they don't consider the frame to be the handgun" My direct question was what law or court decision are you citing, and the answer consistantly was "it is what we beleive." I asked for there determination in writing and was told "no" (all the way up the ladder.)

    When I was turned away from the Area Command, I promtly got on the phone to Jolie in the firearms detail, I then was transfered to her supervisor who's name I did not get. In an attempt to be in accordance with registration, I persisted and spoke with Sgt. Brown who said he was with firearms detail as well. After that I spoke with Deputy Chief Salinas, and Was told that if has time, that he would contact me mid week. None of the folks at METRO could, or would point out how I could WITH CERTANTY comply with the provisions in the Ordanance. I ask you the Legislative (lawmaking branch) to write/ clarify the law. Allowing METRO officers to decide what a firearm is, or is not is a violation of the Nevada Constitution. Article 3 Section 1 reads :
    Section 1.  Three separate departments; separation of powers; legislative review of administrative regulations.
    1.  The powers of the Government of the State of Nevada shall be divided into three separate departments,—the Legislative,—the Executive and the Judicial; and no persons charged with the exercise of powers properly belonging to one of these departments shall exercise any functions, appertaining to either of the others, except in the cases expressly directed or permitted in this constitution.

    It is also my understanding from Deputy Chief Salinas that mETRO is no longer registering AR style pistols such as this:

    This pistol gets the lower reciever designated a pistol when it is sold. The ATF considers it a pistol. I asked METRO once again what law they were enforcing, they cited none. I asked them if they would send me a letter stating this fact, I was told no.
    I am asking the Legislature/ County Commissioners the following:

    Who Makes the regulations / definitions I mentioned above, METRO, The County, Or State Legislature?

    What is the legal Definition of a firearm requiring registration, and does it cease to be a firearm when it is not "put together?"

    If I purchase a frame, and start building a firearm, at what point must I register with the Sheriff?

    Does the sheriff have the power to superceed my constitutional right to own a firearm, by refusing to register a firearm to me? (See Clark County Ordinance Provided.)


    12.04.200 Registration of firearms capable of being concealed.permanent link to this piece of content
    It is unlawful for any person with at least sixty days of residency in the county to own or have in his possession, within the unincorporated area of Clark County, a pistol or other firearm capable of being concealed, unless the same has first been registered with the sheriff or with a police department of any of the incorporated cities of Clark County.

    In Liberty,
    DTOM
    Last edited by DON`T TREAD ON ME; 08-31-2013 at 05:25 AM. Reason: Took out last 5 of serial #

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    The next day I set out again. here is the update letter:

    To All,

    After spending hours on the phone and in person yesterday attempting to register my firearms in accordance with Clark County's Registration Ordinance. I set my other dutys aside this morning and set out allow the "sheriff" of my county to register my firearms.

    This morning I chose a different area command (north East,) was greeted professionally and things started happening. I was starting to wonder if it had just been me being "cranky" yesterday. Then the wheels fell off the apple cart, I did not know the address and phone number for my next of Kin. My pistols were collected and handed back to me, I was told to come back when I have that information by Maria Vegh P# 9128 This is not anything like what METRO's website says, Here is a quote from the LVMPD website: http://www.lvmpd.com/Permits/FirearmsRegistration.aspx

    Registration
    Registration can be accomplished at any Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Substation and at any other law enforcement agency within the incorporated cities of Clark County. (North Las Vegas, Henderson, Overton, and Mesquite).
    Registration is quick, simple, and easy. To register simply bring your handgun (unloaded) to any police substation. Submit your State Drivers License or State Identification Card. If you were born outside the United States and its territories, you must also provide either documented proof of U.S. citizenship or documented proof as a permanent resident immigrant. You will receive a cursory background check and given a gun registration card. It's that simple; and there is no registration fee. Please Note: The gun registration card is NOT a permit to carry a firearm concealed. Carrying a firearm concealed without a permit is unlawful and punishable as a felony.


    They do not tell you what information to bring, such as contact info for your next of Kin, Name and address of your place of employment, telephone number, SSN number. Miss one of these and you leave empty handed.

    I left the North East Area Command and started on my daily errands, suddenly I realized that I was near the North Las Vegas Police Station. I know from reading everything there is to read about Clark County Gun Registration that North Las Vegas is not the "Sheriff" and is not mandated to provide gun registration as a rule. However North Las Vegas does facilitate firearm registration out of courtesy, to the extent they can.

    To shorten the story, ironically north las vegas registered both firearms quickly, professionally, and with the minimum of effort for myself.

    I am left with these questions for the County commissioners.

    Is there a requirement beyond providing your valid identification, and submitting your firearm for Cataloging?
    Is it illegal to sell a firearm to my brother in Seattle, even if I use a FFl and transfer unless he also registers in Clark County, pursuant to CC Ord. 12.04.210?
    How would one go about disassociating themselves from a firearm, in the case of a divorce or other situation wherein one ha no control over said firearm?
    If I move out of Clark County, how would I "de- register" myself and my firearms from "list"
    How do I know that the items registered to me are accurate? (They do not give you a copy of your registration form.)

    An email response will suffice,

    In Liberty,
    DTOM

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    Here is the one reply that I have received to date:

    Thank you for e-mailing your concerns. I am forwarding your very interesting questions to our District Attorney's office for some clarifications.

    Thank you

    Mary Beth Scow

    Clark County Commissioner

  8. #8
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Here is the one reply that I have received to date:

    Thank you for e-mailing your concerns. I am forwarding your very interesting questions to our District Attorney's office for some clarifications.

    Thank you

    Mary Beth Scow

    Clark County Commissioner
    I've written her as well in the past and never get a response. She must like you better'n me.

    OK, next of kin???? When did that start? I've never given my next of kin that I can remember. Of course I'm getting awful fuzzy these days.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    I've written her as well in the past and never get a response. She must like you better'n me.

    OK, next of kin???? When did that start? I've never given my next of kin that I can remember. Of course I'm getting awful fuzzy these days.

    TBG
    YOU are getting fuzzy? or your brain is? hehe.

  10. #10
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Larson View Post
    YOU are getting fuzzy? or your brain is? hehe.
    Both...

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    I've written her as well in the past and never get a response. She must like you better'n me.

    OK, next of kin???? When did that start? I've never given my next of kin that I can remember. Of course I'm getting awful fuzzy these days.

    TBG
    I usually get "dead air" from all of them. She probably thinks this could further one of her agendas I am guessing, I do not send letters out expecting results. I do it because i am working on my spelling, punctuation, and grammar. And they can't go anywhere... Ha

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    Under Federal law, the frame is the firearm. The rest of the components are NOT a firearm.

    If the cops won't register what the Feds define as a firearm, SUE the SOBs. Let them defend in court their refusal to obey the idiotic law that they fight so hard to keep on the books.

  13. #13
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Under Federal law, the frame is the firearm. The rest of the components are NOT a firearm.

    If the cops won't register what the Feds define as a firearm, SUE the SOBs. Let them defend in court their refusal to obey the idiotic law that they fight so hard to keep on the books.
    With regard to registration at the county level, I don't think what the feds define as a pistol, if they do define it, matters.


    NRS 202.3653  Definitions.

    4.  “Revolver” means a firearm that has a revolving cylinder with several chambers, which, by pulling the trigger or setting the hammer, are aligned with the barrel,
    placing the bullet in a position to be fired. The term includes, without limitation, a single or double derringer.

    5.  “Semiautomatic firearm” means a firearm which:
    (a) Uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fixed cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of the trigger; and
    (b) Requires the release of the trigger and another pull of the trigger for each successive shot.


    The state definition seems to mean a complete, operable firearm, or so that is the way I read it. It does not mention "pistol" however as the county code does.


    The county under 12.04.010(5) defines: "Pistol" means a firearm capable of being concealed that is intended to be aimed and fired with one hand."

    That would also seem to mean a complete firearm. This is the definition they would go by.

    I don't think there is any ammo here to use against them. But hey, any needle is a good needle.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    ...Clark County ordinance:
    12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours...
    That's a damn shame. I thought that Nevada was a one of those FREE states!

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    Re: Here I go thinking out loud again.

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    That's a damn shame. I thought that Nevada was a one of those FREE states!
    Nevada *is* one of the Free States at this point.

    The registration fiasco is only in Clark County, where the elected officials seem to think they are "more enlightened" than the rest of the state.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    Nevada *is* one of the Free States at this point.

    The registration fiasco is only in Clark County, where the elected officials seem to think they are "more enlightened" than the rest of the state.
    And YET, the elected ones from the REST OF THE STATE let them do it and also keep electing that troll known as HARRY REID!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Re: Here I go thinking out loud again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    And YET, the elected ones from the REST OF THE STATE let them do it and also keep electing that troll known as HARRY REID!
    This is true!

    But golly, as long as it doesn't affect the rest of the state, what's the harm? /sarcasm

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    Nevada *is* one of the Free States at this point.

    The registration fiasco is only in Clark County, where the elected officials seem to think they are "more enlightened" than the rest of the state.
    And, evidently where a lack of preemption allows them to be.

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    I don't give them my Social Security information; the clerks at the Cheyenne and Enterprise substations insisted that I had to provide it.

    When I declined, stating that the SSN is NOT to be used as identification (it's written right on the back of the card itself), the clerk at Cheyenne made a face, went off to check with her supervisor then came back and completed my "blue card".

    At the Enterprise substation, the clerk tried to ramrod me saying that it was required (it is not), that she needed it to run a background check (why? I have a CCW), and that she wouldn't process the registration. I told her to give me my gun back and I'd take it up with someone above her, she also made a face, went off to check with her supervisor then came back and completed my "blue card".

    Take it as a given that I won't be surprised if this happens again, but I still won't give them anything more than my name, address, and contact information.

    mbogo

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I don't provide next of kin, or employer information. It is not required by law. I've not had any problems yet, but have had numerous other issues with their ignorance while they do their illegal background check and other illegal delays to the vaguely required registration.

    But they have a badge, and we do not.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I don't provide next of kin, or employer information. It is not required by law. I've not had any problems yet, but have had numerous other issues with their ignorance while they do their illegal background check and other illegal delays to the vaguely required registration.

    But they have a badge, and we do not.
    It’s that old authority “superstition” that most all citizenry and all “authority” figures operate under. The belief in “authority” allows those believing in it to require obedience from those who also believe in it. When those who are “required to obey” realize that there is no such thing as “authority,” perhaps, just perhaps there will be less obedience and more obstinacy… probably not in our lifetime, though.

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