• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Open Carrier Murdered by **** Cop

MattinWA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
278
Location
Spokane Washington
Yawn sixty plus year old killed in his own home, cop defends cop, cycle of violence continues

Buisness as usual
 
Last edited:

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Yawn sixty plus year old killed in his own home, cop defends cop, cycle of violence continues

Buisness as usual

I defended nobody. I said there is no way to know from this article if the shooting was justified or not. That is not a defense. It is a statement of agnosticism. Violence is sometimes the only response and often the legal response. Was this such a situation? I have no idea, nor does any other discerning reader who chooses not to kneejerk out of bigotry/prejudice against cops
 

MattinWA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
278
Location
Spokane Washington
I defended nobody

Nor were you, specifically, accused. It will happen, it always does. The story will be fabricated by the last remaining witness, to put the old man in a threatening light. No one will left to refute the testimony of a "trusted" public servant as a police officer. The investigation will be launched by his friends and co-workers, with the intent to prove the original story was the correct one, because heaven forbid we hold police officers to the same standards as "civilians."

This investigation is then turned over to a DA, who already has a profesional working relationship (possibly personal relationships develope, ie playing golf, drinking beer, ext.) with the shooter, his friends, bosses, and co-workers, who then gets to review their report, then decide wether to press charges.

In any other legal arena, this would be called a conflict of interest.

Am I anywhere close to how it works in the "real world?"

If your definition of prejudice means a a distrust of the set norms because of past abuses, then I guess I'm prejudice ...
 
Last edited:

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
Am I anywhere close to how it works in the "real world?"

They don't call it the Thin Blue Line for nothing.

Technically it wasn't murder because the validity of the officer's actions depends on the circumstances as the officer perceives them, not as they actually are.

The cops call this "the totality of the circumstances". Which means no matter what evidence the cop is innocent and the civilian is guilty.
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Palo, really?

Citing law where you can shoot a fleeing felon in Washington has nothing to do with an officer murdering a homeowner in his garage in Tennessee, nice try on the diversion tactics, but I can see through that BS

I see that incident as partially the guy's fault too .. he invited the cops onto his land to do "security checks" to look for robbers....

Of course I think that its 90% the cop's over-reaction.

We really should make our police departments professional organizations. Right now, they look like Laurel and Hardy.
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Heck, we could just start there.

How much you wanna bet professionalism would follow if the cops actually had work with the community, rather than just shooting at it and invading its homes?

In both the community I live in, and the community I work in, we work very much with the community. We work with, and help people set up, block watches and stuff. We are very open to community leaders and pretty much anybody else (21 or over) to have the ability to do ride-alongs, to see how we serve the public. Not including the COPS crew :) , I've had a half dozen community members ride along with me in my car. It's a great way to educate the public about the job and many of the ride-alongs provide good feedback and sometimes even helpful tips, since they know their communities often better than we do.

And ime, in most cases, people who do ride alongs come away with increased respect and appreciation for the job we do. That's true of citizen academy graduates, too. Ime, it's one of the best ways to take a person who is unhappy with the PD and turn them into a person who has a more positive outlook about us - is to stick them in a patrol car for a shift or two. Over and over again, I have had people comment t hat they had no idea about some of the things we do, the professionalism, the ability to problem solve, and to help people. It's very eye opening experience. I recommend anybody do a ride along with their local PD.

We participate in National Night Out, and we routinely attend community meetings, providing members of the community with updates as to what we are doing, crime trends, crime prevention tips, etc. and we solicit input from community members as to what they want enforced, problem areas, etc. Probably the #1 complaint is "drug house" in their neighborhoods and enforcement of noise ordinances, loose aggressive dogs (I corralled an aggressive pitbull that had been threatening people today back into his yard. No shots needed. A story you will not read in the paper.), speeding,etc.

Any good PD works closely and in partnership with the community. My PD is excellent in this regards (the PD I work for ) as is the PD where I live. Many people here have an US v. Them attitude about the cops, and certainly a very small %age of people in my communities (work and home) do too, but on the whole I find people routinely approach me and ask questions regarding crime prevention, trends, etc. and also thank me for serving the public. That happens a LOT and it's one of the reasons I love my job is the positive response from the community I serve.

And of course, as the polls prove, people DO view us as professional and honest and ime the vast majority of cops live up to their good reputation.

Our police dept. also runs a "citizen academy" which is an excellent mini academy that people in the community can apply to and attend, to learn ever more about what we do. We also encourage reserve officers in our agency, who are unpaid cops who work a minimum # of hours per month. These are often businessmen and community leaders who want to serve their community as cops, too. We have reserves that work in patrol and detective division and they are an extremely valuable asset.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
In both the community I live in, and the community I work in, we work very much with the community. We work with, and help people set up, block watches and stuff. We are very open to community leaders and pretty much anybody else (21 or over) to have the ability to do ride-alongs, to see how we serve the public. Not including the COPS crew :) , I've had a half dozen community members ride along with me in my car. It's a great way to educate the public about the job and many of the ride-alongs provide good feedback and sometimes even helpful tips, since they know their communities often better than we do. <snip>
Does your LEA permit a citizen to OC or even CC during the ride-along?
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Yes, PALO, we are all well aware by now that your department exists in magical fairy land, is staffed by angels, and is universally loved by all in the community (I imagine scenes à la the liberation of France every time you go on patrol).

However, most of us live in the real world.

(Actually, I should be fair to the Giles County Sheriff's department. They basically don't do anything except give out the occasional traffic ticket. This is, I suspect, due to Giles County being rather poor. If they'd stop revenue hustling I might even say that, on the balance, I don't mind them. Northern Virginia, and the entire state of California – where I lived for six years – are another story entirely. The police are simply not part of the community in those places, and very few real citizens – as opposed to the straw men polled by Gallup – approve of their numbers, expenditures, tactics, militarization, or general excesses.)
 
Last edited:

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
...edited for brevity...

While I appreciate your valuable input here you must realize your claims are in no way a reflection of reality?

We know the Thin Blue Line is a reality. We know out east they stop and frisk. We have seen the multitude of checkpoint videos and checkpoints. We have multiple facebook pages dedicated just to dogs blown away by cops for no reason. We have interactive maps that show botched military Swat raids. We have the Cato Institute following police misconduct on a daily basis. We have video, audio and first hand accounts posted to this very forum of thugs with badges breaking multiple laws all the time. We have people assaulted, arrested, and threatened on daily basis in this country by cops simply for taking a picture.

Wonder what public opinion is about 7 yr old Aiyana Stanley-Jones? 92 yr old Kathryn Johnston? Homeless man Kelly Thomas?

My favorite story of all time. It has everything. Botched raid, bumbling cops, no warrant, Dead dogs (one shot in the back while running away). Mayor cuffed for hours in his underwear.

Calvo described a chaotic scene, in which he -- wearing only underwear and socks -- and his mother-in-law were handcuffed and interrogated for hours. They were surrounded by the dogs' carcasses and pools of the dogs' blood, Calvo said.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...1_police-dog-trinity-tomsic-mayor-cheye-calvo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residence_drug_ raid

Cato Institute Police Misconduct site.
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
 
Last edited:

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
While I appreciate your valuable input here you must realize your claims are in no way a reflection of reality?

We know the Thin Blue Line is a reality. We know out east they stop and frisk. We have seen the multitude of checkpoint videos and checkpoints. We have multiple facebook pages dedicated just to dogs blown away by cops for no reason. We have interactive maps that show botched military Swat raids. We have the Cato Institute following police misconduct on a daily basis. We have video, audio and first hand accounts posted to this very forum of thugs with badges breaking multiple laws all the time. We have people assaulted, arrested, and threatened on daily basis in this country by cops simply for taking a picture.

Wonder what public opinion is about 7 yr old Aiyana Stanley-Jones? 92 yr old Kathryn Johnston? Homeless man Kelly Thomas?

My favorite story of all time. It has everything. Botched raid, bumbling cops, no warrant, Dead dogs (one shot in the back while running away). Mayor cuffed for hours in his underwear.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residence_drug_raid

Cato Institute Police Misconduct site.
http://www.policemisconduct.net/

Nobody denies that some cops commit misconduct. Duh. Tangential to the point, which is that there is simply no way to know if this shoot was justified based on a media article or two. The investigation will reveal whether it's justified or not. Every profession has some members who engage in misconduct, just like the police

I am the first to criticize police misconduct.

I am not the first, like the niche minority present at this site, to automatically assume a bad shoot without having the relevant facts to support such a claim. The overwhelming majority of cops do the right thing, nearly all the times. But yes, anybody can look on the internet and find actual examples of police misconduct as well as alleged examples (many of which are bogus or not proved)

Groovy. I remain agnostic on this shoot until more case facts are revealed.
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
But yes, anybody can look on the internet and find actual examples of police misconduct as well as alleged examples (many of which are bogus or not proved)

Not the case with the Cato Institute site I continually link to. And the members here are well versed in how a police "investigation" goes down. You seem to forget that members here are speaking from first hand experience. If not, they have watched members here fight to clear their name. They have accompanied members to multiple court dates. Donated massive amounts of time and money to fight the usurpation of their inalienable rights. This is something you seem to ignore.

No matter how many times you claim your dept is beloved by millions it will never make the scars here go away. The mountains of paperwork. The fear. The anger. The lies. While most may accept all cops aren't bad you will eventually have to come to terms with the fact that it does not matter. Lives and the lives of those around them have forever been devastated by the MANY thugs in uniform. Instead of wasting your time trying to convince members here that cops are the greatest thing ever you might try to work on your end. Start by breaking down the Thin Blue Line.

Groovy. I remain agnostic on this shoot until more case facts are revealed.

On this I agree 100%.
 
Last edited:

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
My favorite story of all time. It has everything. Botched raid, bumbling cops, no warrant, Dead dogs (one shot in the back while running away). Mayor cuffed for hours in his underwear.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residence_drug_raid
This story isn't new to me, but one of my favorite parts about it is the following admission:

Spokesmen for the Sheriff's Office and Prince George's police expressed regret yesterday that the mayor's dogs were killed. But they defended the way the raid was carried out, saying it was proper for a case involving such a large amount of drugs.

You have to love the honesty. No appeal to "officer safety". No attempt to spin it so the Mayor seems dangerous. It's just, "large amount = worse crime = punished by SWAT raid".
 
Last edited:

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Nobody denies that some cops commit misconduct. Duh. Tangential to the point, which is that there is simply no way to know if this shoot was justified based on a media article or two. The investigation will reveal whether it's justified or not. Every profession has some members who engage in misconduct, just like the police

I am the first to criticize police misconduct.

I am not the first, like the niche minority present at this site, to automatically assume a bad shoot without having the relevant facts to support such a claim. The overwhelming majority of cops do the right thing, nearly all the times. But yes, anybody can look on the internet and find actual examples of police misconduct as well as alleged examples (many of which are bogus or not proved)

Groovy. I remain agnostic on this shoot until more case facts are revealed.

Bwahahahahahahahahaaa!!

Kinda like one of the most "professional" departments in the country determined that the negligent killing of an optometrist in 2006 wasn't manslaughter, just a (quoting the chief) "tragic accident"? Until forensic evidence proved the shooting could not have happened the way cop witnesses claimed, and the department settled for millions? (I love it when the PD is held up as one of the most professional in the country. If they are professional, what does that say about the rest?)

The only times I can recall a cop being charged is when there was tons of public outcry or so much evidence as to be unavoidable.

Yes, we can always expect the police investigation to reveal the truth. /sarcasm
 

MattinWA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
278
Location
Spokane Washington
Bwahahahahahahahahaaa!!

Kinda like one of the most "professional" departments in the country determined that the negligent killing of an optometrist in 2006 wasn't manslaughter, just a (quoting the chief) "tragic accident"? Until forensic evidence proved the shooting could not have happened the way cop witnesses claimed, and the department settled for millions? (I love it when the PD is held up as one of the most professional in the country. If they are professional, what does that say about the rest?)

The only times I can recall a cop being charged is when there was tons of public outcry or so much evidence as to be unavoidable.

Yes, we can always expect the police investigation to reveal the truth. /sarcasm

Palo is only interested in facts, not the truth
 

Silvertongue

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Marion County, Tennessee
Hey did you guys hear that Ben Affleck is going to be the new Batman?

Figured I'd go off-topic too.

Back to serious business; It is a tragedy that a life was lost, but (just as the recent story about Zimmerman assaulting his wife) I must remain neutral until real facts are presented.

Speculation gets people lynched. Rather, it did, back in the old days.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
In both the community I live in, and the community I work in, we work very much with the community. We work with, and help people set up, block watches and stuff.

.

Lady: Policeman, I heard a dog barking yesterday..

Cop: We'll be right on it .... come-on boys, overtime ! Bring plenty of ammo !
 
Last edited:

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
Lady: "My 14 yr old ran away! Please help!"

Cop (covers mouthpiece, gives thumbs up to SWAT, then holds up one finger indicating how many body bags will be needed): "Okay ma'am. We'll get her. Rest assured. We will get her. Where did you last see her...."
 
Top