Watched cops can be good cops

I'm in favor of "fruit of the poison tree" type responses to police who fail to record their collection of evidence (including their own witnessing of another's actions).

Sorry, Officer, but if you didn't videotape yourself finding the drugs (and the entire encounter from before it started), then it didn't happen. In fact, you probably planted them. In fact, your refusal to make video documentation is prima facie evidence of your criminal culpability for having done so.

davidmcbeth said:

Global warming caused the drop ... oh wait, there was no global warning during that time period.

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Global warming is being caused by lack of piracy, this is well established.

No chance that the drop could be explained by BOTH the LEO and the Citizens behave better?

It should be pointed out that those who know that the interaction is being recorded can affect the other person who has no idea that a tape is being made into acting in certain ways ~ its not hard to manipulate most people.

eye95 said:

And those videos are not of either all or even most cops.

Just like many cops become jaded by dealing almost exclusively with thugs, making them think of everyone as a thug, many here are relying on bad personal experiences and videos of bad cops (no one posts videos of the huge number of cops doing their job right) to allow their view of cops in general to become warped into thinking that every one of them is a thug.

Judge each individual cop by his actual behavior.


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<o>

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You're basically saying its invalid to draw wider conclusions based on limited observations. Essentially, under your argument, we have to wait until we see almost every cop on video misbehaving before we can conclude there are widespread, pervasive problems. Yours is not reasonable--its a demand for the suspension of reason.

Separately, and unnecessary to the previous arguemnt, cops are quick to say this or that behavior by a citizen is suspicious because criminals have done the same thing, justifying a detention of an innocent citizen. That argument works both ways. Too bad for cops, I've seen tons of videos and reports of cop abuses. I can use their own logic against them: they're wearing a similar uniform to criminal rights abusers.

As long as the so-called good cops are not demanding an end to the Blue Wall of Silence, they're enabling the bad ones.

The abuse reports and videos are coming from departments all over the country. They're not isolated to a very few states, cities, or regions. And, they've been coming for years. The more ubiquitous the internet and citizen recording ability, the more reports we get. Are we really supposed to suspend reason and assume its just a few bad apples? Really? The dark side of some humans' nature doesn't exist just because it isn't seen yet? Really?

All cops are also citizens...so let us think for a moment, that the majority of police are just trying to do what is right...and a small minority need to be fired...if we look at all the officers together, and all of their activity...then you would notice a positive trend right?

Well, just like life, you remember really bad encounters and really good ones...but all those middle of the road moments get forgotten; and when something bad happens, everyone in that group gets labeled but when something good happens that individual is good...so, let us just believe that all people are inherently good until they prove otherwise...that or be paranoid and think everyone is bad until proven otherwise...

...i still wont trust a liar...i mean lawyer...

Frankly, given their grossly overinflated numbers, only a small minority of cops need to be retained.

Even that seems overly charitable, when one compares the law enforcement of today with that of the past, when juries reigned and constables enforced their mandates.

The vast majority of cops are "good" cops, I just can't tell by looking at any given cop if he will be good or bad. We all have seen video of cops who have been bad in the past. So far I have not encountered a bad cop.....knock on wood.

Just to expand a little bit on my previous post a few notches above:

We can also look at other aspects of the bigger picture. There are few huge red flags.

For example, the litigation over NYPD's abuse of Terry Stop. The numbers are huge. And, we can ask just a very few questions: how does a decent person perpetrate a suspicionless detention on another human being? And, how does so many of these so-called good cops come to agree that its right and just to perpetrate suspicionless detentions on other human beings? And, why was it hushed up and denied by NYPD until a lieutenant finally broke ranks and confirmed it to the media? One cop? Come on.

For example, paramilitary police. We've got a genuine national infestation of SWAT teams now. And, they're serving routine warrants on non-violent people. Thus we get stories of dogs shot for a search warrant for possession-size stashes. And, stories of children burned when the flash-bang is thrown into the kids' bedroom window. And, stories of more than forty confirmed innocent people killed in mistaken-address raids and such. How does a decent person not go to a lot of trouble to make sure SWAT-level force is needed, and not confirm no kids, not double and triple verify the correct address when the potential for great tragedy is present?

For example, asset forfeiture. Abuses abound in some states. Its gotten to the point where a new term was coined, policing for profit. While drug cash is being seized, the personal property and cash of innocent people is also being seized, forcing them into expensive litigation to recover it. Its gotten so bad that a (Tennessee?) TV station ran a story on it a few years ago. The cops didn't set up the roadblock on the side of the interstate to catch the drugs coming in; they set up the roadblock on the side to catch the drug cash going back. What kind of decent person keeps the cash or personal property of someone who is not provably a drug professional? Think about it. If you were a cop at an asset forfeiture roadblock, would you keep the cash or vehicle of someone who might be innocent, someone you were not darned sure was a drug runner or drug cash courier? Could you do it?

For example, The Innocence Project. The last I checked they had secured the exoneration of over 250 people wrongly convicted of crime and imprisoned, mainly by testing or retesting DNA evidence. Question: if the DNA evidence proves beyond any doubt the convictee didn't do the crime, if the DNA evidence proves conclusively he wasn't the guy, what on earth were the cops using to convince themselves they had the right guy? How far a leap did they make in jumping to their conclusion? How did those detectives treat people when they were patrolmen?

So, now add in the number of police abuses coming to light through citizen video, and then try to tell me there aren't huge problems, there are only a few bad apples, etc.

+1 And the reason why AR's are so popular? Its an arms race, with citizens and police.

davidmcbeth said:

+1 And the reason why AR's are so popular? Its an arms race, with citizens and police.

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To the extent that police, as well as military, would be used to enforce tyranny in an endgame, I agree it is a sort of arms race. Citizens need to be on par with their potential oppressors.

OC for ME said:

The vast majority of cops are "good" cops, I just can't tell by looking at any given cop if he will be good or bad. We all have seen video of cops who have been bad in the past. So far I have not encountered a bad cop.....knock on wood.

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And yet again, replace every instance of the word "cop" with "citizen" and the statement remains true, and thought provoking - except in my case I have encountered a few "bad citizens", but have yet to encounter a "bad cop" (though I know they are out there).

Look, my point is that cops are a sub-set of citizens, and just like the citizenry at large there are mostly good and some bad. Put them into groups, and you get mostly groups that are good and some bad. Judge them individually, not collectively based on the actions of the minority, just like you would want to be judged as an individual gun owner, not based on the actions of the minority of bad gun owners.

JustaShooter said:

Look, my point is that cops are a sub-set of citizens, and just like the citizenry at large there are mostly good and some bad. Put them into groups, and you get mostly groups that are good and some bad. Judge them individually, not collectively based on the actions of the minority, just like you would want to be judged as an individual gun owner, not based on the actions of the minority of bad gun owners.

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And, your point is not particularly valid anymore given the vast extent of problems.

I am judging individually. I don't have to have data on all individuals to draw conclusions--I can also use the lack of data. In this case, the lack of outcry from within policing to abolish the Blue Wall of Silence.

Similarly, back when citizen's videoing cops was a front-and-center issue in the media, lots of cops had an opportunity to publicly express support for citizen rights. Across several months I came across exactly and only one blog from a cop supporting citizen rights to video on-duty uniformed cops. One cop? Out of some 900K in the US? Come on. Give me a break.

By their silence, the so-called good cops enable the bad cops. How good a cop can they be if they won't arrest a fellow officer on the spot for assault, excessive force, etc., of a detainee.

Two particular incidents serve as examples of the extent of bad cops.

One was a college student beaten by cops after a basketball game in MD. On video he can be seen approaching a few mounted cops. Suddenly he is pounced upon by several foot cops without justification. No other cops on that street corner intervened. The only reason we know this is because the security camera video surfaced again after initially "disappearing" and "having technical difficulties." Am I really supposed to believe that it was just coincidence that the only four bad cops in that department just all happened to be on that exact street corner at that time? And, that the remaining cops who didn't intervene were the only cops in the department who wouldn't intervene? Really?

Another example was a homeless man set upon by a gang of badged thugs in (CA?). He was beaten to pulp. Two citizen cell phone videos. Hospital photos hours before his death showed his face swollen to complete unrecognizability. In the citizen videos the deceased can be heard moaning and crying for his dad as he's being beaten. Am I really supposed to believe that the only six bad cops in that department just happened to be the ones who were on the scene beating that guy literally to death? Really?

Give me a break already with this glossing over about a few bad apples and judge individuals only. Exactly how many individual "isolated" incidents am I supposed to learn about before I can make a broad judgement?

I'm sure there were innocent conscript soldiers in Chairman Mao's army. Same for the Stasi. Same for Saddam's and Bashar's police. Does that really mean I'm supposed to be stupid and pretend there aren't vast problems? Really?

Citizen said:

You're basically saying...

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Please let me make my own arguments. You do a lousy job of stating my views.

Comparing good/bad cops/citizens

The problem with trying to compare bad citizens with bad cops is simple:

1) Citizens are NOT paid by the state to enforce the laws "fairly"
2) Citizens are NOT given the benefit of the doubt when compared to cops in courth
3) Citizens are NOT responsible for apprehending law breakers
4) Citizens ARE expected to "take abuse" by cops, and then take it to the "impartial courts" in the hopes that the situation will be "corrected" at some later distant date.

The reasons are simple...police are NOT law enforcement...they are just "order maintenance". They are paid by the state to keep the upper crust happy, and the lower crust in its place. Anything else is just wishful thinking, nothing else.

eye95 said:

Please let me make my own arguments. You do a lousy job of stating my views.

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No, you do a lousy job of thinking through the ramifications and implications of your statements.

Nobody but nobody thinks I'm stating your views.

Citizen said:

You're basically saying...

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eye95 said:

Please let me make my own arguments. You do a lousy job of stating my views.

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Citizen said:

No, you do a lousy job of thinking through the ramifications and implications of your statements.

Nobody but nobody thinks I'm stating your views.

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As everyone can clearly see, you are stating what you incorrectly believe to be my views.

I must insist that you stop doing that.

It is cheap.

It is juvenile.

It is dishonest.

If you'd like to have an adult discussion, let's.

If you'd like to keep misrepresenting what I am saying, I'll just move on.

All a video of a cop is good for is to add a couple of zeros to a settlement check. A little retraining here and some training over there, every now and again along with some tweeking of department policies and we're all good. Untill the next thug cop is caught on video engaging in misconduct.....rinse and repeat. A video of a thug cop needs to be distributed far and wide. If LEAs will not police themselves then public humiliation for each thug cop and attaching the LEAs to the thuggish behavior is required to get LE back to where it should be.....keeping the peace.

eye95 said:

As everyone can clearly see, you are stating what you incorrectly believe to be my views.

I must insist that you stop doing that.

It is cheap.

It is juvenile.

It is dishonest.

If you'd like to have an adult discussion, let's.

If you'd like to keep misrepresenting what I am saying, I'll just move on.

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As everyone can clearly see, I am exploring the ramifications/implications of your logic.

If you can't refute it, yes, do please move on. The fact you've wasted two posts not refuting me speaks volumes.

OC for ME said:

All a video of a cop is good for is to add a couple of zeros to a settlement check. A little retraining here and some training over there, every now and again along with some tweeking of department policies and we're all good. Untill the next thug cop is caught on video engaging in misconduct.....rinse and repeat. A video of a thug cop needs to be distributed far and wide. If LEAs will not police themselves then public humiliation for each thug cop and attaching the LEAs to the thuggish behavior is required to get LE back to where it should be.....keeping the peace.

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LEOs will get more respect when they are ARRESTED and PROSECUTED as frequently and as vigorously as normal citizens are for the same misbehavior. Not before.