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Thread: Open Carrier not "shot first"

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Open Carrier not "shot first"

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...-end-well-for/

    Looks like OC allowed for a very fast draw, the varmint not even seeing the OCed gun. Watch closely. He had only one free hand. Draw from concealment may have been much slower.
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-03-2013 at 08:49 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    "Minimum $2 purchase ! Go back and find something else..."

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    ... He had only one free hand. Draw from concealment may have been much slower.
    Very important point. It's one of the several very practical reasons for open carry IMO. Go watch a couple of videos on how to draw from CC, watch how much friggin' motion it takes from both hands and arms to get a good draw, even from a standard carry position. It's almost absurd. A lot of the same reasons to not carry with the pipe empty apply here. It takes extra time, extra training, it adds steps, each of which can potentially trip you up when you lose control to adrenaline and shock, and it requires two hands for proper and quick execution. Drawing from CC also means that your draw might change as a result of something as simple as a shirt change, such as loose fitting vs. snug fitting, tucked in vs. let out, button up vs. t-shirt, even the thickness or fabric type could make a difference when you're trying to execute a very specific motion in the heat of the moment and at great speed.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 09-03-2013 at 11:30 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A lot of things went wrong or maybe better to say not right - but he still came out standing on top of te grass with only as many holes as when he started the day. By that standard he did excellently.

    - he pushed away the perp's arm but does not appear to retain control of the arm. He let go of the arm at least 3 times that my bad eyes could see, and each time the perp could have come up underneath the clerk's arm. A former prison guard should know better.

    - he had to reach twice to get a grip on his handgun and draw it. Gotta work on getting that grip the first time every time.

    Do not practice until you do it right - practice until you cannot do it wrong. Which, of course, means practicing.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    A lot of things went wrong or maybe better to say not right - but he still came out standing on top of te grass with only as many holes as when he started the day. By that standard he did excellently.

    - he pushed away the perp's arm but does not appear to retain control of the arm. He let go of the arm at least 3 times that my bad eyes could see, and each time the perp could have come up underneath the clerk's arm. A former prison guard should know better.

    - he had to reach twice to get a grip on his handgun and draw it. Gotta work on getting that grip the first time every time.

    Do not practice until you do it right - practice until you cannot do it wrong. Which, of course, means practicing.

    stay safe.
    I think you need a bigger monitor. The clerk never had control of the perp's wrist, hand, nor arm. He did not draw until he had a firm grip. It's easy to armchair it, but I don't think anything was wrong.

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    Regular Member jhfc's Avatar
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    I thought he did a nice quick draw and had his pistol in the perps mouth before the perp had a chance to raise his own pistol.

    He showed restraint in not firing I would think. He says he didn't feel his life was in danger as the perp had not yet pointed the gun at him. But, by then, it would have probably been too late.

    All in all, a lucky day for all involved, but particularly for the criminal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    I thought he did a nice quick draw and had his pistol in the perps mouth before the perp had a chance to raise his own pistol.

    He showed restraint in not firing I would think. He says he didn't feel his life was in danger as the perp had not yet pointed the gun at him. But, by then, it would have probably been too late.

    All in all, a lucky day for all involved, but particularly for the criminal.
    Issue with that... you don't have the right to aim and threaten someone if you DON'T feel your life is in danger... Although it could be argued that WHILE drawing, he was in fear, but at the time his weapon reached the ready position, he no longer feared...

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    He was a "fool" to say or think is life was not in danger. OTOH the BG didn't seem fully committed to the robbery. Still, show me a gun and demand cash, I'm not giving you much benefit of the doubt. Because there won't be any.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    Issue with that... you don't have the right to aim and threaten someone if you DON'T feel your life is in danger...
    That depends on the state. In some states in may be acceptable to "bluff" so long as deadly force is not actually employed until one's life is reasonably felt to be in danger.

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    Guy walks into store, draws a firearm and points it in my face... yes, I would definitely be in fear for my life! I don't care if I do grab his arm and get the gun out of my face -- all the guy has to do is slip my grasp and bring his gun right back up to kill me. Armed robbery is one of the worst mala-in-se crimes imaginable; this guy needs to be permanently removed from the streets being as his modus operandi is extremely dangerous to everyone around him.

    Side note: was he carrying openly? Was he carrying with the gun partially exposed in his pocket? Could anyone tell? The clerk stated he thought it was funny that he didn't re-holster so I assume he was carrying openly.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 09-04-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    Issue with that... you don't have the right to aim and threaten someone if you DON'T feel your life is in danger... Although it could be argued that WHILE drawing, he was in fear, but at the time his weapon reached the ready position, he no longer feared...
    I can see it as a circular argument. He drew his weapon because the perp had a weapon that could threaten his life. But he didn't fire because once his weapon was drawn the deadly threat was gone, removing the need/lawfulness to fire. But without drawing the threat would still be there, which would force him to draw...

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    I think you need a bigger monitor. The clerk never had control of the perp's wrist, hand, nor arm. He did not draw until he had a firm grip. It's easy to armchair it, but I don't think anything was wrong.
    Thank you for making my point. Clerk swept the perp's arm but DID NOT retain control of it. And yes, he waited till he had a firm grip before drawing - but it sure looks like he had to make two attempts before obtaining that firm grip. Watch his right shoulder and upper arm as he goes for his pistol - is there some other reason you might suggest for that "hitch"?

    Because he came out unscathed the clerk ends up not doing anything wrong. But he did a few things that could stand improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    I thought he did a nice quick draw and had his pistol in the perps mouth before the perp had a chance to raise his own pistol.
    I beg your pardon? Perp pointing his gun (the one he raised) at the clerk is what set off the rodeo.

    Again, there were things I saw that could have been done better. That does not mean they were done "wrong".

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Thank you for making my point. Clerk swept the perp's arm but DID NOT retain control of it.
    I don't see the point. The guy isn't Superman? Retaining control of the guy's arm across a counter would be nice, but so astronomically unlikely as to be worth expecting a Plan B.

    Furthermore, the way the robber swings his arm around his back indicates that he had become afraid the clerk was trying to take his gun. This provided a window for the clerk to draw while his assailant was distracted.

    According to my armchair quarterbacking, the victim had no real chance to "retain control" of his assailant's arm, but did manage to put his assailant on the defensive long enough to get the upper hand himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Hey!! Cato's back!!

    Welcome back, Cato!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BriKuz View Post
    Issue with that... you don't have the right to aim and threaten someone if you DON'T feel your life is in danger... Although it could be argued that WHILE drawing, he was in fear, but at the time his weapon reached the ready position, he no longer feared...
    I kinda disagree with this assessment as applied to the instant video.

    A gun was criminally pointed, a threat of right-now lethal force was made.

    The defender judged correctly that the bad guy would back down, but he could just as easily gotten it wrong if the bad guy had changed his mind and decided to sweep the defender's gun, step aside, etc., and shoot. At any point, the bad guy still had the option of carrying through with his threat of lethal force.

    I gotta give the defender great compliments for judging the bad guy correctly and avoiding a shooting. But, had he simply shot the bad guy, there is no way I would second guess him and demand that he should have used finer judgement because "the bad guy might not have brought his gun back up."

    At that point we're into questions about whether the defender even possesses the necessary perception to detect the bad guy's frame of mind, whether the defender can even think to judge that the bad guy is going to back down, and whether the defender remains calm enough--in the face of a lethal threat--to do that perceiving and judging.

    On one level, I'd say the bad guy was lucky to pull that robbery on that victim. From hindsight its easy to tell the robber wasn't actually willing to shoot the clerk. But a lesser man might not have picked up on that and just filled him with holes.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Who much has ammo increased in price? Wow!

    The clerk is using all his skills learned in the Army.....

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