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How to handle a officer who feels he needs to disarm you ?

OC for ME

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I'll believe you IF you can show me one court case of an officer convicted of a criminal act for not investigating, OR one officer who was officially penalized by his department for dereliction of duty in not investigating someone he sees armed.

As they say, citations or it didn't happen.
Cite what? Ask a TN cop what they must do. I only postulate what TN law says they must (should?) do. Consequences to not investigating are secondary to the lawfulness of not investigating.

What I stated.
If a TN cop knows you have a gun and he does not detain you to investigate whether or not you have a defense then he is derelict in his duties and likely committing a criminal act for not investigating.
I suspect that a TN citizen not being contacted to determine the lawfulness of he carrying a pistol is a serious allegation for a TN cop who does not investigate. It is a Class C misdemeanor for the first offense for carrying a pistol on your hip w/o a HCP. Will a cop in TN get in trouble for not investigating a Class C misdemeanor committed in his presence? Will cops in TN let other Class C misdemeanors committed in their presence go uninvestigated?

I don't know. I'd like to think that Class C misdemeanors get investigated every time a cop sees one being committed. Unless, of course, not all Class C misdemeanors are created equal in TN.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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In TN having a permit is actually a "defense" and not an "exception"
Right. That's how many licenses / permits work.
It's illegal to operate a motor vehicle on public ways, but one exception which makes it not a crime is having a valid driver's license.
Are you certain that is how the law is written, MKE?
Check out 343.05.3. The reasonable suspicion that an officer would need to investigate if any motorist would not be that he was driving, but that the motorist did not possess a license to drive.
"... No person may operate a motor vehicle which is not a commercial motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless the person possesses a valid operator's license issued to the person by the department which is not revoked, suspended, canceled or expired..." Merely observing someone operating a vehicle does not give any suspicion that said person doesn't have a license, unless my logic if flawed.


Contrast that with the Tennessee Code...
39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon.
(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4''), or a club.
Reasonable suspicion? "I see a firearm; that's a violation of 39-17-1307(a)(1)."

39-17-1308
(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:
(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 (list of public officials) or § 39-17-1351(the Tennessee Handgun Permit).









Addendum..Opinion of the Tennessee Attorney General, Opinion No. 05-154. "...Under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308(a)(2), possession of a handgun permit is a defense to the crime of carrying a weapon for the purpose of going armed..."
 
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Fallguy

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That's not how a permit works... that would be like saying that driving is illegal, but a licence gives you a defence when you get arrested, for driving. Do you see how ridiculous your assertion is now?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

It may not be how a permit is supposed to work, but is how it works in TN.

As far as your driving example, it is common mistaken reference. There is no law in TN that says it is illegal to drive and then a separate law that is you have a license it is a defense to the application of the other law. However there IS a law that says it is illegal to go armed in TN and then a separate law that says it is a "defense" to the application of that law if you have a carry permit. Those laws use the terms "exceptions" and "defenses" so they do mean different things.

t is not my assertion, simply the law.
 

DamonK

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Ft. Lewis, WA
It may not be how a permit is supposed to work, but is how it works in TN.

As far as your driving example, it is common mistaken reference. There is no law in TN that says it is illegal to drive and then a separate law that is you have a license it is a defense to the application of the other law. However there IS a law that says it is illegal to go armed in TN and then a separate law that says it is a "defense" to the application of that law if you have a carry permit. Those laws use the terms "exceptions" and "defenses" so they do mean different things.

t is not my assertion, simply the law.

Then you guys have a responsibility to get that law corrected as it flies directly in the face of the 2ND Amendment as recently ruled by the SCOTUS. It's your law, work to fix it now that you have a solid position to work from.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 

Fallguy

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Then you guys have a responsibility to get that law corrected as it flies directly in the face of the 2ND Amendment as recently ruled by the SCOTUS. It's your law, work to fix it now that you have a solid position to work from.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

I agree, I think it directly violates Article 1, Section 26 of the TN constitution as well. Which says, "That the citizens of this state have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime"

I'm not sure how something can be a right if there is a law directly against it.

I have been to Nashville several times and stay in contact with my State Representative.
 

SgtScott31

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Nashville
Anyone who has a permit to carry a concealed firearm is obviously not a danger to anyone, and they should never be disarmed in my opinion.

I have arrested several permit holders involved in drug activity and one in particular I can remember with filed serial numbers on his weapon. I'd be careful making such a broad statement. If you were a LEO I think you wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption. While the majority are law-abiding I'm not going to bet my life on it.

Then you guys have a responsibility to get that law corrected as it flies directly in the face of the 2ND Amendment as recently ruled by the SCOTUS. It's your law, work to fix it now that you have a solid position to work from.

It has been challenged and never made it past the 6th Circuit COA.


If a TN cop knows you have a gun and he does not detain you to investigate whether or not you have a defense then he is derelict in his duties and likely committing a criminal act for not investigating

Completely false. Just because we can stop and verify the legality of a permit status does not mean we are required to.
 
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Kopis

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Jun 19, 2013
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Nashville, TN
Sgt Scott,

I always enjoy your thoughtful and useful replies. You seem to have a very balanced approach and offer good insight from an LEOs perspective. Thanks.


I do believe the overwhelming majority of permit holders are much less likely to commit a "real" crime but certainly some do as you said.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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I think it's the next one down, right where it says the officer must.

I've had my disagreements with the good Sergeant, but ... do you see me doing that here? He's completely in the right, according to Tenn code it IS illegal, and according to Tenn code there IS a defense to the charge.

Saying he has to investigate is just about the same as saying he investigate/arrest anyone who shares his NetFlix password or apprehend any children he sees holding hands in school.
 
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OC for ME

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I think it's the next one down, right where it says the officer must.

I've had my disagreements with the good Sergeant, but ... do you see me doing that here? He's completely in the right, according to Tenn code it IS illegal, and according to Tenn code there IS a defense to the charge.

Saying he has to investigate is just about the same as saying he investigate/arrest anyone who shares his NetFlix password or apprehend any children he sees holding hands in school.
Hyperbole and deflection. I do not dispute what the law requires.

Those two instances are not analogous to he seeing a crime in progress. Well, the NetFlix thing might be a identity theft issue. All SgtScott31 has to do is tell us all which Class C misdemeanors he will not investigate and why. I merely desire to know why a gun being seen is different than any other Class C misdemeanor where officer discretion is concerned.

I applaud SgtScott31 for not stopping OCers as a matter of his personal preference if that is his personal preference. But, officer discretion is used for both good and bad. Consistency is all that I request from any cop. If every OCing TN citizen knows that they will be investigated every time then every TN citizen will, or should be, in a frame of mind that understands the expectations required of both parties.

Knowing what to expect from any cop benefits citizens and cops. I like TN and I now know what to expect, and what is expected of me if I am approached while OC in TN. I only hope that any given cop will be aware of what a citizen expects.
 

davidmcbeth

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What TN statute permits you to not investigate a Class C misdemeanor violation when you witness one?

This notion is built into our political blood ... the legislature can pass whatever laws it wants; it does not mean that the executive branch must enforce nor does it mean that the judiciary must convict.

Look at some illegal immigration laws .. obamalama said not to enforce ... so they don't ...
 

SgtScott31

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What TN statute permits you to not investigate a Class C misdemeanor violation when you witness one?

Actually unlawful carry where one or more persons are present is an "A" misdemeanor. There's plenty of crimes out there that an officer can witness and does not act upon it (or investigate), especially when it comes to C misdemeanors. There's no law that says I have to. If my memory serves me correctly most moving violations in TN (i.e. speeding, following too closely) are "C" misdemeanors. I see that every single day. Whether I decide to act upon it depends on the totality of circumstances. Obviously if there was a serious offense that I failed to investigate then it could violate departmental policy and even lead to criminal misconduct charges. A guy walking through Walmart or some other public venue with a weapon strapped on his side is not going to compel me to walk up on him and demand his HCP. I could do it, and the law says I can do it, but unless there are some other factors at play I probably won't. Am I violating a "law" if I don't investigate? no. Am I violating my agency policy? no.

With that said I want you guys to keep in the back of your head the sue-happy world we're in. In the situation described above some officers will approach and ask for his HCP simply because if they don't and this person uses his weapon within a reasonable time after the officer saw him, guess who's getting sued? It's kind of a dam*ed if you do, dam*ed if you don't situation. If you do walk up and ask for HCP you're an arrogant ahole who's just trying to flex your badge. If you don't walk up you're failing to investigate a possible armed "suspect" who's about to shoot his wife in Isle 3. If this is a Walmart in Hazard County (i.e. very rural) it's probably a very common sight to see armed men. If this is the Walmart off Charlotte Pk in west Nashville, he might garner some extra attention (and a MWAG call). I think there's quite a few variables at play so I try not to jump on any bandwagon when something goes down between a HCP holder and a LEO. There's always 2 sides to every story.

As far as your question OC, you're not going to get consistency because of the reasons I stated above. I can tell you that in Nashville there are many crimes committed in an officer's presence that they do not act upon (i.e. arrest). Simple possession of marijuana is one that I can think of off the top of my head. If we investigated and arrested on every single misdemeanor the courts in Nashville would be far worse than they are today. Many things are taken into consideration at the time the LEO is faced whether to arrest or not arrest (or investigate). Some include higher priority calls, calls pending, supervisor input, the suspect's criminal history, and the actual severity of the crime (aside from whether it's an A, B, C misdm by statute).


p.s. Maverick why would I lie? Permit holders are arrested more than you might think. It may be hard for some to swallow, but it happens. Most of these offenses normally don't involve violent crimes, but it's a criminal offense nonetheless. I'm not sure why some think that every single permit holder in existence holds some sort of higher being than those who choose not to carry/own a weapon.
 
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OC for ME

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SgtScott31,

I have learned a valuable lesson regarding officer discretion, it is his discretion and his alone, for good and bad. I will not, and never have, second guessed a officer's discretion. I respect the job that you do for the simple fact that I do not possess the temperament to tolerate idiots. My hat is off to you Sir for being a better man than I in this regard.

No ulterior motive in the question I assure you. I simply find it curious that location dictates when a officer will or will not exercise his discretion. I wish it were not so when it comes to a properly holstered firearm visible to all.

+1 to you Sir, and please be safe.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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In the situation described above some officers will approach and ask for his HCP simply because if they don't and this person uses his weapon within a reasonable time after the officer saw him, guess who's getting sued?

A reasonable guess is, Not The Officer Nor His Department.
I could be wrong, but if I am then I'm sure you can point to one court case where such a suit was successful?
 

SgtScott31

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A reasonable guess is, Not The Officer Nor His Department.
I could be wrong, but if I am then I'm sure you can point to one court case where such a suit was successful?

Seriously? It's very likely the officer and/or his department. People who file these actions don't go after the ones with no money. I'm not saying the person would be successful on the merits, but it's still in the back of any officer's mind. It's likely that none have been successful either, but there's still time, money, and stress fighting any type of civil action against you.
 
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SgtScott31

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SgtScott31,

I have learned a valuable lesson regarding officer discretion, it is his discretion and his alone, for good and bad. I will not, and never have, second guessed a officer's discretion. I respect the job that you do for the simple fact that I do not possess the temperament to tolerate idiots. My hat is off to you Sir for being a better man than I in this regard.

No ulterior motive in the question I assure you. I simply find it curious that location dictates when a officer will or will not exercise his discretion. I wish it were not so when it comes to a properly holstered firearm visible to all.

+1 to you Sir, and please be safe.

I wish all LEOs exercised it the same way, but unfortunately there are bad apples in the bunch just as there are with any other profession. I do what I can to guide these young bucks and for the most part my agency has a good group of folks. I know we all wish that some common sense would be exercised at all times by all involved.
 

DarksWife07

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Nashville,TN
I hear what you're saying, but actually OC/CC is not legal it TN, it is illegal and you can defend yourself against that charge by having a permit.

....and as former dispatcher, you can't rely very much on what a caller tells you they are observing.

But I agree follow up questions about what else is the person doing, etc... is a must.

As long as you have a permit,You can OC/CC in TN. I was told that by a police officer,They "prefer" I CC for "my" safety.
 

grimtas

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Mar 5, 2015
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Colorado
For a necro, a very informative read. I especially liked the comment about getting out of the car and locking it to secure the weapon, made me laugh to no ends. I appreciate the contributions by the TN LEO and wish there were more like him about. He seems to have a very real grasp on the law ans uses common sense in his applications of the law. I have to be somewhat careful as my spouse is former LEO from military forces in another country. We have disagreements all the time on citizen interactions in the US. We both get many laughs in watching Cops and the stuff they pull for the cameras, it's disgusting.
 

DarksWife07

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Nashville,TN
I appreciate both opinions I have received so far... keep them coming. The whole reason I even bring this up is, when I first started carrying I had a run in with a TN state trooper at a normal traffic stop. He walked up to the vehicle and leaned down to notice my hands on the wheel as so may preach about doing at a traffic stop. His first words to me where is their a weapon in this vehicle. Me trying my hardest not to be a smart a** and say yes theirs a tire iron in the trunk lol, I refrained my self and said yes I have a Springfield 9MM on my hip which is covered by my seat belt... Saying this to re assure him it would be almost impossible for me to even reach the gun. Pointless I guess because his next action was to ask me to remove my pistol from the holster and hand it to him, which required me to unlatch my seat belt just to even be able to remove the weapon from my side. With out any hesitation I informed him of this and he rested his hand on his sidearm and asked me to proceed. I removed the 9mm and as he had ask spun it around and handed my loaded gun to him grip first... (all before even asking for any identification from me) As i handed him the firearm I stated I'm permitted by the state of TN. He struggled with the gun as he asked if it was loaded and I told him yes it was. After trying to pull the slide back a couple of time he then asked it the gun had a malfunction... This being a very new firearm I replied that he needed to put a little more force on the slide. He did so and the round in the chamber falls out to the ground. He then removed the mag and place it on the roof of my car, a pet peeve of mine (i place nothing on my cars paint NOTHING) lol. Then he picked up the round he dropped and asks... Is this police issue ammunition to which i responded no. That is hornady critical defense ammunition. He also badgered me about where it was purchased... (side note i was under the assumption that there was no such thing as police only use ammunition) After all was said and done he stuck the gun in the back of his pants and ask for all my assorted paper work and wrote me a ticket for window tint of all things. End of story Handed me all my belongings back including the gun unloaded and told me he felt he should be the only one armed at a traffic stop and that i could not reload the gun till he had fully left my line of sight. Felt like a lot of unnecessary hassle to me and thus this topic was started.


Common sense tells me to NEVER hand over a loaded gun. I would have removed the mag & the round in the chamber before handing it over.
 
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