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Thread: Recent encounter at a mall

  1. #1
    Regular Member jmonday7814's Avatar
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    Recent encounter at a mall

    A little bit of background on me:

    I am new to this forum, but I am not new to firearms. I have some training and I handle all firearms responsibly at all times. With that being said, lately I have been trying to open carry more frequently because I don't know when a situation will arise that I will need to protect myself or other innocent people.

    This past weekend I went to the mall with my girlfriend while open carrying a full-size firearm. This was a large public mall that does not serve alcohol to be consumed on the premises. I do have a CCW but on this occasion I chose to open carry. There are not any signs posted on the doors or near the doorway prohibiting firearms. While walking through the mall I was approached by mall security and told that I cannot have a firearm inside the mall and I must leave it in my vehicle. I followed the request only because I am unsure of my rights in this situation. Mall security specifically stated that there are signs posted but "they are very small" and that the mall is private property and they can ask me to leave my firearm in my vehicle.

    Is the mall really private property?
    Was I within my rights to carry openly inside the mall?
    What would have been the best thing for me to do in this situation? Request that mall security contact local PD to verify my rights?
    Would I have been better off just carrying concealed?
    If a sign is not posted can a security officer ask me to leave the premises or leave my firearm in my car?

    A slight concern with leaving the firearm in a vehicle is that someone may see me walk back to my car to leave the firearm there and break into my car to steal the firearm while I am inside the mall.

    Thanks for all your help in advance.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Just because a store/mall is open to the public does not make it "public property." It is still privately owned.

    Yes, they can enforce trespassing on any person for any reason, and they actually don't even have to tell you why. In this case, they do have the authority to tell people that they cannot bring in firearms.

    So the best thing to do is leave and write to the stores that you were going to spend money in to tell them why you did not.

    The signs themselves are legally meaningless here, though. You do not have to look for them, nor should you.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-11-2013 at 12:11 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  3. #3
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Recent encounter at a mall

    1st Welcome.

    From your post it is clear you maynot have a full understanding of AZ gun law. That's ok, many don't and they can be a bit confusing and some are plan silly in particular related to signage. I strongly suggest you purchase a copy of the Arizona Gun Owners Guide by Mr. Alan Korwin and read it from cover to cover.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/agog.htm

    As posted above to remain in compliance with current ARS (Arizona Revised Statutes) you must comply (as you did) with the request of agents of a private property owner to leave or store your weapon when asked. Had you not you could have been charged with criminal trespass. Stay safe and carry on good Sir.

    ETA- Note should you be asked to store your weapon ever again- depending the make (Glock, XD, M&P, Ruger SR etc..) I would recommend breaking the pistol down in your car (safely) and taking the barrel or most of the upper assemb. with you in your pocket(s). That way even if your vehicle is broken into, thugs only get parts, not a working gun. That should satisfy even the most picky mall ninja's.

    I have long advocated for a sticky in the AZ forum citing links to AZ fireams laws. To date no reply from the owners of this site? Hopefully in the future we'll get one. It would help others avoid the situation you found yourself in.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 09-11-2013 at 04:15 AM.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member jmonday7814's Avatar
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    thank you both for assistance, obviously my understanding of the laws was not accurate. I think to avoid situations like this in the future I need much more education on local laws. So, I will be ordering the book you suggested FreeinAZ, thanks again. And I will be ordering a IWB holster for my compact glock since this would avoid any situations like this. Although if for some reason they do see what I am carrying then I would have to abide by their request and leave it in the car.

    I also like your suggestion of taking the gun apart so that a thief could only steal random pieces of it, I will keep that in mind next time I am in a similar situation.

    Thanks again for the information!

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmonday7814 View Post
    ...And I will be ordering a IWB holster for my compact glock since this would avoid any situations like this. Although if for some reason they do see what I am carrying then I would have to abide by their request and leave it in the car...
    I might humbly suggest something different altogether. Refuse to do business with places that require you to be disarmed as a condition of you patronizing them. There are plenty of places in AZ that can handle anything you need without disarming you.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmonday7814 View Post
    thank you both for assistance, obviously my understanding of the laws was not accurate. I think to avoid situations like this in the future I need much more education on local laws. So, I will be ordering the book you suggested FreeinAZ, thanks again. And I will be ordering a IWB holster for my compact glock since this would avoid any situations like this. Although if for some reason they do see what I am carrying then I would have to abide by their request and leave it in the car.

    I also like your suggestion of taking the gun apart so that a thief could only steal random pieces of it, I will keep that in mind next time I am in a similar situation.

    Thanks again for the information!
    Be careful. Carrying a firearm back into the mall, whether it's concealed, IWB or OC, now that you have been advised that firearms are not allowed may subject you to being formally trespassed if the mall security guards recognize that they had warned you in the past. Better that you spend your money at stores that recognize your 2nd Amendment rights.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Be careful. Carrying a firearm back into the mall, whether it's concealed, IWB or OC, now that you have been advised that firearms are not allowed may subject you to being formally trespassed if ....
    What are you calling "formally trespassed?"
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  8. #8
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What are you calling "formally trespassed?"
    Detained by mall security who call the local police and advise that you are no longer welcome on mall property. Local police will make note that you have been formally notified that you may not return and if you do, you may be charged with criminal trespass.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Better that you spend your money at stores that recognize your 2nd Amendment rights.
    +1

    Many (but not all) malls have a no-gun policy.

    This is awesome, because each one is a mall I now have an excuse to never set foot in again.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    .....

    I have long advocated for a sticky in the AZ forum citing links to AZ fireams laws. To date no reply from the owners of this site? Hopefully in the future we'll get one. It would help others avoid the situation you found yourself in.
    Excuse me for butting in, but I happened on this thread and your post while browsing.

    I'm curious - have you already created a thread with the links and then contacted either a moderator or one of the administrators with a requesst for it to be made a stickie? I ask because as far as I can tell the Arizona sub-forum has a grand total of ZERO stickies. It seems strange that after 50+ pages not one of the threads was considered by at least one person worth asking someone to make it a stickie, and the mods/administrator felt none of the requests were "worthy", while other states have almost their full first page filled with stickies.

    In case you missed the subtle hint, I'll come right out and say it - you start the thread with a post filled with links and other info and then ask for it to be made into a stickie. It will not magically appear because you want one.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  11. #11
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Recent encounter at a mall

    Skidmark - PM sent. Thanks for your post.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Skidmark - PM sent. Thanks for your post.
    ::headbang:: ::facepalm:: ::headbang:: ::facepalm:: - lather, rinse, repeat.

    I suppose I should say something like "Glad to have helped" but the above seems so much more appropriate.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  13. #13
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Recent encounter at a mall

    Wow. No need to get all twisted up.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member jmonday7814's Avatar
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    thanks to everyone for chiming in on this and offering solid opinions on how to handle this situation. I like the idea of discontinuing my business at stores which forbid firearms. I've never considered that option since this is the first time I have encountered a problem. Considering the multitude of places that a "bad situation" could occur, and by that I mean ANYWHERE!, I want to make sure that I am always close to my firearm (preferably on my person) if I need it. To me, carrying a firearm is like carrying my wallet....I won't necessarily need it today but I have it just in case I do.

    my personal experience carrying open:
    movie theater - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed

    bank - Bank of America - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed
    - credit union - signs posted - cannot carry open but I have carried concealed (which is legal right?)

    gun stores - obviously this is completely acceptable but lately I have seen signs stating that you cannot handle your firearm while in the store (duh!!, why would someone need this explained to them)

    breakfast/lunch restaurants - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed
    dinner - much more difficult to find a restaurant which does not serve alcohol to be consumed on the premises....so I've never carried open or concealed in that situation

    All other random stores - no other issues

    Thanks again for all the advice guys

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    Recent encounter at a mall

    Quote Originally Posted by jmonday7814 View Post
    thanks to everyone for chiming in on this and offering solid opinions on how to handle this situation. I like the idea of discontinuing my business at stores which forbid firearms. I've never considered that option since this is the first time I have encountered a problem. Considering the multitude of places that a "bad situation" could occur, and by that I mean ANYWHERE!, I want to make sure that I am always close to my firearm (preferably on my person) if I need it. To me, carrying a firearm is like carrying my wallet....I won't necessarily need it today but I have it just in case I do.

    my personal experience carrying open:
    movie theater - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed

    bank - Bank of America - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed
    - credit union - signs posted - cannot carry open but I have carried concealed (which is legal right?)

    gun stores - obviously this is completely acceptable but lately I have seen signs stating that you cannot handle your firearm while in the store (duh!!, why would someone need this explained to them)

    breakfast/lunch restaurants - no signs posted / no issue carrying open or concealed
    dinner - much more difficult to find a restaurant which does not serve alcohol to be consumed on the premises....so I've never carried open or concealed in that situation

    All other random stores - no other issues

    Thanks again for all the advice guys
    My credit union had removed there signs for 6 mo or so then placed them back up


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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Detained by mall security who call the local police and advise that you are no longer welcome on mall property. Local police will make note that you have been formally notified that you may not return and if you do, you may be charged with criminal trespass.
    After advising someone to leave and then preventing them from leaving would be unlawful.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paver1055 View Post
    my credit union had removed them there signs for 6 mo or so then placed them back up


    sent from my iphone using tapatalk
    fify.

  18. #18
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    Recent encounter at a mall

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    fify.
    ^^?


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  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paver1055 View Post
    ^^?


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    "Fixed it for you".

    Indicates the poster modified the quoted post to reflect their sentiments.

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    Recent encounter at a mall

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    "Fixed it for you".

    Indicates the poster modified the quoted post to reflect their sentiments.
    Gotcha, I didn't notice anything different till I re read it. Thank you


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