Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 129

Thread: What Virginians MUST take from the Colorado Recall

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    What Virginians MUST take from the Colorado Recall

    Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of polite in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" third-party candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

    A post in the well respected "The Volokh Conspiracy" blog today provides a reasoned analysis of what happened in Colorado yesterday. Many good and very important points, well beyond the scope of gun-control and the Second Amendment. I highly recommend the read.

    IMHO, this short, almost overlooked blurb is one of the most important points in the entire article:

    "Morse barely won re-election in 2010, and might have lost if not for the presence of a Libertarian on the ballot."

    Translation: If the utopians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a third party candidate who did not have a chance to begin with, they never would have HAD to recall the gun-grabbing liberal who WON the election - and rammed these gun-control laws down the throats of the citizens of Colorado.

    As I have always said, I am not against better candidates. It is useless to support them in the GENERAL election. It is folly to believe that ANYone is going to get some "message" based on single digit returns. The only message heard in the general election is who wins. The only way to create change in the political climate is to support the better candidates in the primaries*. The disaster of Colorado can and does happen whenever people waste votes on their "better" third-party candidates.

    TFred

    * Let's do the math... is it easier to win among half the electorate (a primary or convention) or among the entire electorate (a general election)?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of politeness in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" GOP candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

    Translation: If the utilitarians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a Republican who could only "maybe" win if every third-party voter voted for him, they could have elected a good candidate in the first place, whom they wouldn't have HAD to recall.

    Your post is riddled with so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions, I'm just going name one: the most obvious is the oft-repeated (and baseless) assumption that most or all who vote Libertarian would have otherwise voted GOP.

    Most of the people I know who vote Libertarian don't consider the Republicans any better, and would never vote for one (any more than they'd vote for a D).

    You've got this notion of big government leftists being held at bay by an alliance of Republicans and Independents who favor liberty.

    But I am not your ally. The GOP is statist, favors big government at every turn, and is my enemy.

    Just so we're clear.
    Last edited by marshaul; 09-11-2013 at 02:26 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of politeness in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" GOP candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

    Translation: If the utilitarians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a Republican who could only "maybe" win if every third-party voter voted for him, they could have elected a good candidate in the first place, whom they wouldn't have HAD to recall.

    Your post is riddled with so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions, I'm just going name one: the most obvious is the oft-repeated (and baseless) assumption that most or all who vote Libertarian would have otherwise voted GOP.

    Most of the people I know who vote Libertarian don't consider the Republicans any better, and would never vote for one (any more than they'd vote for a D).

    You've got this notion of big government leftists being held at bay by an alliance of Republicans and Independents who favor liberty.

    But I am not your ally. The GOP is statist, favors big government at every turn, and is my enemy.

    Just so we're clear.
    ::FLAG::

    My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

    All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 09-11-2013 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    Here are REAL fixes:

    One: Abolish Primaries. Candidates shall be chosen only by members of their own kind in Conventions.

    Two: Mandate run-off elections if no one candidate obtains a majority vote.

  5. #5
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ::FLAG::

    My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

    All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

    TFred
    How about two, both for the US Senate, and both in 2006 (talk about lightning striking twice!):

    Connecticut 2006: Connecticut for Lieberman Party Joe Lieberman Re-elected 49.7%
    Vermont 2006 : Independent Bernie Sanders Won 65.4%
    Christian, Husband, Father
    NRA Life Member
    NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

    Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
    IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    271
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ::FLAG::

    My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

    All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

    TFred
    Lieberman,Sanders, and King come to mind readily.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    One: Abolish Primaries. Candidates shall be chosen only by members of their own kind in Conventions.
    I'm not sure I see how this would help, and therefore I probably don't agree. Perhaps you can elaborate.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    130

    change

    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    One: Abolish Primaries. Winners will be chosen by voters from all the candidates.
    How about...
    Last edited by AJG; 09-11-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519
    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    How about...
    Well, I saw your edits ....

    I'm wondering, are you suggesting a full-scale Jungle Primary?

    That would be God-awful .... worth considering, though:

    Jungle Primary
    A primary election in which all candidates for elected office run in the same primary regardless of political party.

    Also known as the “Nonpartisan Blanket Primary” or “Top Two Primary”, the top two candidates who receive the most votes advance to the next round, similar to a runoff election. However, there is no separate nomination process for candidates before the first round, and parties cannot narrow the field. In fact, it is entirely possible that two candidates of the same party could advance to the second round. For this reason, it’s not surprising that the parties haven’t rushed to embrace jungle primaries because they ultimately reduce their power.
    Oh, I see: God-awful for the Establishment. Such a free-for-all street brawl might give a muscular L-Party dude a fightn' chance.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    240

    Re: What Virginians MUST take from the Colorado Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ::FLAG::

    My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

    All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

    TFred
    Senator Bernie Sanders ( I ) Vermont.

    Gort. Klaatu barada nikto.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    I think that the "Jungle Primary" might work best if the candidates weren't allowed to claim a party affiliation.
    Last edited by marshaul; 09-11-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I think that the "Jungle Primary" might work best if the candidates weren't allowed to claim a party affiliation.
    That might work for Bolling.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    That might work for Bolling.
    Bolling?

  14. #14
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    mayberry, nc
    Posts
    2,258
    TFRED, maybe it's about time for a third party. there is no difference in the Republican and the Democrats.

    maybe it is about time we put some Libertarians in office they couldn't do any worse. who knows they might actually do good
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Bolling?
    Isn't he a member of the Right-In Party?

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by kurt555gs View Post
    Klaatu barada nikto.
    Necktie?

  17. #17
    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    271
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Necktie?
    A quote from "The Day The Earth Stood Still". One of my favorites of all time. Hard to believe they actually did it justice when they remade it a few years ago.

    The jist of it is to wipe it all out and start over.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    Connecticut 2006: Connecticut for Lieberman Party Joe Lieberman Re-elected 49.7%
    Vermont 2006 : Independent Bernie Sanders Won 65.4%
    No.

    Lieberman is a Democrat who happens to irk a few too many of his fellow Democrats over strong defense issues.

    Sanders... well, from Wiki:

    "Sanders is a self-described democratic socialist,[2][3] and has praised Scandinavian-style social democracy;[4][5] he is the first person elected to Congress to identify as a socialist in six decades.[6][7]

    Sanders caucuses with the Democratic Party and is counted as a Democrat for the purposes of committee assignments, but because he does not belong to a formal political party, he appears as an independent on the ballot."

    Any other tries? If that's the best you got out of thousands of elections over the years, my point is proven.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 09-11-2013 at 06:49 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    TFRED, maybe it's about time for a third party. there is no difference in the Republican and the Democrats.

    maybe it is about time we put some Libertarians in office they couldn't do any worse. who knows they might actually do good
    Love to. Give us a feasible plan that will accomplish the task.

    TFred

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    227
    This is the way I see it, as things currently stand.

    If the (R) wins, RKBA in VA will either improve marginally (assuming the same or better state legislature) or at worst, stay the same.

    If the (D) wins, RKBA in VA will be more of a target, from introduced legislation to judges appointed by the governor. As you are probably aware, a number of sources have already reported on contacts between the (D) and Bloomberg.
    see, e.g., http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ing-96217.html

    While the (L) may be the best ideological RKBA/OC candidate, current polling and history do not appear to be on his side.

    From strictly a 2A standpoint, electing the most viable alternative to the (D) would seem to be the best choice, and at this time, it would appear to be the (R).

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by half_life1052 View Post
    A quote from "The Day The Earth Stood Still". One of my favorites of all time. Hard to believe they actually did it justice when they remade it a few years ago.

    The jist of it is to wipe it all out and start over.
    Clearly I've seen more movies than you have.

  22. #22
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Leesburg, GA
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I am well past the point of polite in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" third-party candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.
    Then you sir, are part of the problem and not the solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alexandria, Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,764
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of politeness in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" GOP candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

    Translation: If the utilitarians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a Republican who could only "maybe" win if every third-party voter voted for him, they could have elected a good candidate in the first place, whom they wouldn't have HAD to recall.

    Your post is riddled with so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions, I'm just going name one: the most obvious is the oft-repeated (and baseless) assumption that most or all who vote Libertarian would have otherwise voted GOP.

    Most of the people I know who vote Libertarian don't consider the Republicans any better, and would never vote for one (any more than they'd vote for a D).

    You've got this notion of big government leftists being held at bay by an alliance of Republicans and Independents who favor liberty.

    But I am not your ally. The GOP is statist, favors big government at every turn, and is my enemy.

    Just so we're clear.

    Precisely. Given a choice of only the D and the R in our upcoming gubernatorial elections, I would write in "NONE OF THE ABOVE".
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by Forty-five View Post
    From strictly a 2A standpoint, electing the most viable alternative to the (D) would seem to be the best choice, and at this time, it would appear to be the (R).
    Perhaps.

    But the 2A does not exist in a void. The Amendments in the Bill of Rights reinforce each other, and none can stand without the others (most of them, anyway).

    From its inception, throughout the 20th century, and up to today, the GOP has demonstrated that, unchecked, they would happily demolish, at one time or another, the entire Bill of Rights (2nd amendment excepted), out of misguided social conservatism, frankly aggressive and immoral neoconservatism, or just out of the general statism which has pervaded the party since its founding.

    What's sad is that we need the disgusting Democrats to check the Republicans. And vice versa.

    Well, I'm sick of lesser-of-two-evils (but still evil). I'm sick of the unremitting slow erosion of our rights that results from the best we can ever get being opposing the other side's encroachments (sometimes).

    I want someone who advances my rights, and more than just one or two of them at the expense of all the others.

    I want a libertarian (small-l), and I'll vote that way until I get one, or die.
    Last edited by marshaul; 09-11-2013 at 08:09 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Perhaps....
    What's sad is that we need the disgusting Democrats to check the Republicans. And vice versa...

    I want someone who advances my rights, and more than just one or two of them at the expense of all the others...
    In some cases, it is sad.

    I too want someone who advances our 2A rights. However, I would rather have status quo (and maybe a bit better) than a better chance at worse.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •