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Thread: OC @ school sports games?

  1. #1
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    OC @ school sports games?

    So, I have a couple of questions actually. If I drop my kid off at school, I can OC or I have to CC? I understand I can't go inside buildings, what about covered areas? What is the amount of time I can linger after I drop off my kid? And how early before they get out of school can I be there? How about soccer games? Friday night football games? What if I'm picking my kid up after a sports game or an assembly or concert? Two of my kids are in rec league soccer and have soccer practice a our school districts satellite soccer fields. What's the law say about all this? I'm licensed for conceal, but prefer OC, do I have to pay a lawyer to find out the legality of all of this!? Help please

    Cheers!

    OCinBlaine

    P.S. I know grammar and punctuation are not a skill I do well.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

    applicable section...

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    my reading of this is you leave it in your car, following the rule in this and in http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    "(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle."

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    OC @ school sports games?

    Well, I'm picking up my student from his soccer game, but I'm overly punctual and came an hour and a half early? Am I still allowed to carry at the soccer fields?


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    Re: OC @ school sports games?

    If you try that you will be arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. Section 3(e) may be poorly written, but it is clear enough that it means much less than 90 minutes. As far as I am aware this law has not been tested, so even coming on campus for 3 minutes to genuinely drop off a child while OC is likely to get you arrested and prosecuted. You might get off on the conviction but it wouldn't be worth the time, effort, stress, or money it would cost you.

    Just forget about it except maybe as a mental exercise for fun on these forums, because it isn't going to be worth it if you actually try it.

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    Last edited by arentol; 09-11-2013 at 10:13 PM.

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    OC @ school sports games?

    Well, that's not going to happen, but your defeatous opinion has been noted. I will for sure not just claim ignorance and go to my sons soccer game all OC in everyone's face, how ever, I will be getting clarification from people who matter, and who care.

    Cheers!

    But you are more then welcome to just play games on forums and give up with out even trying.

    We need to normalize our community.


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  6. #6
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    I don't particularly like the interpretation from my earlier post, but leaving it locked in the car seems the best choice available under the current set of laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

    applicable section...

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    my reading of this is you leave it in your car, following the rule in this and in http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    "(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle."
    I absolutely think you could lawfully walk your kid to his classroom per RCW 9.41.280 because of (e), (e) stands alone as an exception and does not depend on any of the other exceptions IMHO. However I would not want to be the test case.

    The bigger problem if you were OC but not CC would be RCW 9.41.270 in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. I think OC would easily meet the warrants alarm for the safety of other persons in just about every case one would lose that in court.

    Do not try this at home or at a school.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    There is more applicable sections, you need to read the entirety of the RCW, my quote was not ALL the applicable portions, our RCW are short compared to most other states, but they do tend to run on.

  9. #9
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    AGO_1994_No_001
    FIREARMS--WEAPONS--SCHOOLS--Possession of firearms in facilities used exclusively by
    schools
    RCW 9.41.280 prohibits possession of firearms in areas of facilities while being used exclusively by
    public or private schools. An area of a facility is used exclusively by a school when the school has
    sole possession, control, or use of an area of the facility, regardless of the duration of the use.
    * * * * * * * * * *
    January 12, 1994
    Honorable Linda Smith
    State Senator, District 18
    205 Institutions Building, MS 40418
    Olympia, WA 98504-0418
    Cite as: AGO 1994 No. 1


    Dear Senator Smith:
    By letter previously acknowledged you requested our interpretation of Engrossed Substitute
    Senate Bill (ESSB) 5307, which was enacted as Laws of 1993, ch. 347. ESSB 5307 amended RCW
    9.41.280 to prohibit the possession of firearms (and other weapons) in "areas of facilities while
    being used exclusively by public or private schools". Your question, which asks for an
    interpretation of the quoted language, is:
    Does "exclusively" mean prolonged exclusive use as when a school rents a building
    for an extended period solely for school activities, like an off campus classroom, or
    does it include sporadic use of a multi-use facility such as the Kingdome during the
    football playoffs?

    BRIEF ANSWER
    We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have
    sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.

    ANALYSIS
    Before the 1993 legislative session, RCW 9.41.280(1) prohibited an "elementary or
    secondary school student under the age of twenty-one knowingly to carry onto public or private
    elementary or secondary school premises" a firearm, among other weapons. ESSB 5307 broadened
    both the class of persons subject to the prohibition and the areas to which the prohibition applied.
    The amendatory language reads:
    (1) It is unlawful for ((an elementary or secondary school student under the
    age of twenty-one knowingly)) a person to carry onto public or private elementary or
    secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities
    while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
    (a) Any firearm[.]
    Laws of 1993, ch. 347, § 1, p. 1388.
    In interpreting a statute, the court's primary objective is to ascertain and carry out the intent
    of the Legislature. Rozner v. Bellevue, 116 Wn.2d 342, 804 P.2d 24 (1991); Cherry v. Municipality
    of Metropolitan Seattle, 116 Wn.2d 794, 808 P.2d 746 (1991). This objective governs the
    interpretation of penal, as well as civil, statutes. See, e.g., State v. Johnson, 119 Wn.2d 167, 172,
    829 P.2d 1082 (1992); State v. Clark, 96 Wn.2d 686, 638 P.2d 572 (1982). Penal statutes, however,
    are construed more strictly according to the plain meaning of their words to ensure that citizens have
    adequate notice of the proscribed conduct. Johnson, supra; State v. Shipp, 93 Wn.2d 510, 610 P.2d
    1322 (1980).
    In particular, when statutory language is ambiguous, the "rule of lenity" generally requires
    the ambiguity be resolved in favor of the defendant. State v. Martin, 102 Wn.2d 300, 684 P.2d 1290
    (1984). The rule of lenity is not absolute. It "does not require a forced, narrow, or overstrict
    construction which defeats the intent of the legislature." State v. Johnson, supra, 119 Wn.2d at 172;
    quoting State v. Cann, 92 Wn.2d 193, 197-98, 595 P.2d 912 (1979).
    In our opinion, the plain meaning of RCW 9.41.280 makes it unlawful to carry a firearm
    onto areas of facilities where schools have sole possession, control, or use, regardless of the
    temporal duration of the use. To derive a durational limitation from "used exclusively" would be a
    forced construction that is contrary to the plain meaning of the language, and contrary to the
    legislative intent, of ESSB 5307.
    Again, ESSB 5307 prohibits persons from possessing weapons in "areas of facilities while
    being used exclusively by public or private schools". "Exclusively" modifies the word "used".
    Thus, ESSB 5307 did not prohibit weapon possession in every facility used by a school, but only in
    those used "exclusively" by the school. In construing a word that is not otherwise defined in the
    statute, it is appropriate to resort to a dictionary definition. American Legion Post No. 32 v. Walla
    Walla, 116 Wn.2d 1, 802 P.2d 784 (1991). "Exclusive" is defined as "excluding or having power to
    exclude" and "limiting or limited to possession, control, or use (as by a single individual or
    organization or by a special group or class)". Webster's Third New International Dictionary 793
    (1981). Thus, if the school can exclude other potential users of a facility, the school has "exclusive
    use" of the facility. The definition, of itself, implies no limit on the duration of the exclusive use.
    The context of words in a statute also may help in interpreting the words. State v. Stockton,
    97 Wn.2d 528, 647 P.2d 21 (1982). The context of "used exclusively" indicates that the term has no
    durational meaning. The weapon prohibition applies to facilities "while being used exclusively" by
    schools. "While", of course, does refer to duration. It means "during the time that". Webster's
    Third New International Dictionary 2604 (1981). Read in context, "while being used exclusively"
    indicates that the weapons prohibition applies during the time that the school (or schools) has sole
    possession, control, or use of a facility. The statutory prohibition thus extends to all exclusive uses,
    whether the use is prolonged or sporadic. Because "while" supplies the durational limits on the
    weapons prohibition, it may be assumed that the Legislature did not intend for "used exclusively" to
    impose an additional durational limitation.
    The legislative history of ESSB 5307 also suggests the Legislature was concerned about
    safeguarding facilities where school activities would be held, regardless of whether the use was
    "prolonged". The relevant parts of section 1 of ESSB 5307, as it passed the Senate in March 1993,
    stated:
    It is unlawful for ((an elementary or secondary school student under the age
    of twenty one knowingly)) a person to carry onto public or private elementary or
    secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or athletic facilities
    leased by public or private schools:
    (a) Any firearm[.]
    ESSB 5307 was amended in the House to incorporate the current language, and the Senate
    concurred in the House's amendment. The language of the House amendment was apparently
    intended to encompass the lease of athletic facilities included in the Senate version (which by their
    nature might be used only on a "sporadic" basis) and to broaden the provision to also include other
    facilities used exclusively by schools. The amendatory language expanded the prohibition to all
    facilities, and areas of facilities, regardless of the nature of the schools' use or the means by which
    the possession of the facilities is obtained.

    For these reasons, we believe the term "used exclusively" in RCW 9.41.280 refers to sole
    use, possession, or control of a facility, regardless of the duration of the use.

    Yours very truly,
    THORNTON WILSON
    Assistant Attorney General

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    There is more applicable sections, you need to read the entirety of the RCW, my quote was not ALL the applicable portions, our RCW are short compared to most other states, but they do tend to run on.
    You are correct I responded from memory and should have reviewed the RCW before I commented. I will revise my statement to say;

    I absolutely think you could lawfully walk your kid OC or CC to the front door of his school per RCW 9.41.280 because of (e), (e) stands alone as an exception and does not depend on any of the other exceptions IMHO. However I would not want to be the test case.

    The bigger problem if you were OC but not CC would be RCW 9.41.270 in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. I think OC would easily meet the warrants alarm for the safety of other persons in just about every case one would lose that in court.

    Do not try this at home or at a school.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

  11. #11
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I OC'd at Mt Tahoma High School (Tacoma) when I dropped off and picked up my daughter. I would walk her to the door and when I picked her up I did it at the door as well. I always arrived early (for pickup), waited till I heard the bell ring and at that time would walk to the door.

    I got to know security and various school staff & other parents quite well.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    a holstered firearm does not meet the .270 definitions, but I don't have the case(s) immediately to hand. One is not published and I never seem to be able to remember the other one. I decided to leave mine in the car, since if no one ever saw it, it was safer there than if folks knew I usually had it holstered on my hip. The pickup location was also inside the school gymnasium.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCinBlaine View Post
    So, I have a couple of questions actually. If I drop my kid off at school, I can OC or I have to CC? I understand I can't go inside buildings, what about covered areas? What is the amount of time I can linger after I drop off my kid? And how early before they get out of school can I be there? How about soccer games? Friday night football games? What if I'm picking my kid up after a sports game or an assembly or concert? Two of my kids are in rec league soccer and have soccer practice a our school districts satellite soccer fields. What's the law say about all this? I'm licensed for conceal, but prefer OC, do I have to pay a lawyer to find out the legality of all of this!? Help please

    Cheers!

    OCinBlaine

    P.S. I know grammar and punctuation are not a skill I do well.
    As has been discussed, "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    This certainly allows you to drop off and pick up your students from school, and possibly from games, concerts etc. as well, as the law does not specify "school building". Nowhere in the law does it specifically prohibit OC, and since you have your permit you have had a background check and are deemed safe to carry a weapon onto school grounds.

    I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Hayes about walking your students into the classroom based on "(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building".

    I have been dropping off and picking up my son from school for 6 years now. However, I don't go in the school armed. I think that part of the law is crock of fertilizer from a 4 legged furry beast that is near extinct, but so far I adhere to it, following (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    Now, in regards to OC'ing, even though anything not expressly prohibited by law would therefore be allowed, I personally choose not to be a test case for OC'ing on or in my sons school, or activities. But, I am not going to tell you to follow my example. You can read the law, and choose to OC and I won't criticize you. You may well have the time and resources to test that, and I respect your philosophy that OC needs to be normalized.

    I do think the extended time "dropping off or picking up" may be a problem, unless you CC. The way I read the law, is that you need to be actively picking up or dropping off. However, I hang out all the time chatting with parents outside waiting for our kids. But, I am concealed, and definitely engaged in dropping off, or picking up my student.
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlGutshotWilly View Post
    As has been discussed, "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    This certainly allows you to drop off and pick up your students from school, and possibly from games, concerts etc. as well, as the law does not specify "school building". Nowhere in the law does it specifically prohibit OC, and since you have your permit you have had a background check and are deemed safe to carry a weapon onto school grounds.

    I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Hayes about walking your students into the classroom based on "(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building".

    I have been dropping off and picking up my son from school for 6 years now. However, I don't go in the school armed. I think that part of the law is crock of fertilizer from a 4 legged furry beast that is near extinct, but so far I adhere to it, following (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    Now, in regards to OC'ing, even though anything not expressly prohibited by law would therefore be allowed, I personally choose not to be a test case for OC'ing on or in my sons school, or activities. But, I am not going to tell you to follow my example. You can read the law, and choose to OC and I won't criticize you. You may well have the time and resources to test that, and I respect your philosophy that OC needs to be normalized.

    I do think the extended time "dropping off or picking up" may be a problem, unless you CC. The way I read the law, is that you need to be actively picking up or dropping off. However, I hang out all the time chatting with parents outside waiting for our kids. But, I am concealed, and definitely engaged in dropping off, or picking up my student.
    Gut Shot even I now I disagree with Mr. Hayes after Vitaeus pointed out (6), you can not carry into a school building. That is what I get for depending on my memory and not taking a quick look at the RCW before opening my mouth.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    I OC'd at Mt Tahoma High School (Tacoma) when I dropped off and picked up my daughter. I would walk her to the door and when I picked her up I did it at the door as well. I always arrived early (for pickup), waited till I heard the bell ring and at that time would walk to the door.

    I got to know security and various school staff & other parents quite well.
    +1

    I OC'd picking my kid up at middle school on my motorcycle, one time the principal told him I'd be arrested if I did that so I did it the very next day, everyone knew it was going to happen and the kids cheered, no cops showed up and I was wrong.....the kids got a good lesson in not believing everything or having to follow the advice of their "authorities".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Jeff,
    It seems you posted while I was working on my "treatise" and I missed your correction!

    Cheers,
    Bill
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlGutshotWilly View Post
    Jeff,
    It seems you posted while I was working on my "treatise" and I missed your correction!

    Cheers,
    Bill
    Its all good, I figured that if you missed it someone else might and I wanted to make sure no one followed my bad advice.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member Obi Wan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    a holstered firearm does not meet the .270 definitions, but I don't have the case(s) immediately to hand. One is not published and I never seem to be able to remember the other one.
    State v Cassad,
    “The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public.”

    Obi Wan

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan View Post
    State v Cassad,
    “The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public.”

    Obi Wan
    And yet, in the Kirby case, that seems to be exactly what he was doing. Unless it was the allegations of putting his hand on the gun and dressing in black that sunk his case.

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    Re: OC @ school sports games?

    Quote Originally Posted by OCinBlaine View Post
    Well, that's not going to happen, but your defeatous opinion has been noted. I will for sure not just claim ignorance and go to my sons soccer game all OC in everyone's face, how ever, I will be getting clarification from people who matter, and who care.

    Cheers!

    But you are more then welcome to just play games on forums and give up with out even trying.

    We need to normalize our community.


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    I am being a realist, not a defeatist. Just because gun free school zone laws are useless and stupid doesn't make them less laws for which you can and likely will be convicted.

    My point was to make sure that you didn't go and do something stupid that would get you imprisoned when you have children to take care of. That was the reason I put it as strongly as I did. Not because I wouldn't love to see this law taken down our at least clarified by a test case, but because you seemed to be seriously considering a course of action that would almost definitely fark your life up beyond all recognition.

    As for the mental exercise part.... Until you really do it that is indeed all this is, and I bet you won't ever do it so that is what it will remain.

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    Last edited by arentol; 09-13-2013 at 11:16 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Obi Wan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfc View Post
    And yet, in the Kirby case, that seems to be exactly what he was doing. Unless it was the allegations of putting his hand on the gun and dressing in black that sunk his case.
    Kirby case?
    I'd like to read that.

    How do I find it?
    (So far google has not been helpful.)

    Obi Wan

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan View Post
    Kirby case?
    I'd like to read that.
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ges-dismissed/

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I've always open carried outside my vehicle on school grounds when picking up or dropping off my daughter at middle school and high school. Usually in the handicapped spots because she has a prosthetic leg. I would get out and give her a hug good bye, or hello. Now days it's to move out of or into the driver's seat when she drives from or to school school. Never any problems at all with my gun in those situations. I sit in the car until the bell rings, though.

    Firearms are prohibited inside the building when picking up/dropping off students.

    Sounds like you use Common Sense which is becoming a very Uncommon trait.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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