Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 89

Thread: Training the cops wrong?

  1. #1
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339

    Question Training the cops wrong?

    My lead foot almost got me in trouble this morning, while CCing. I was listening to a very interesting radio segment and lost touch with my speedometer majorly. Oops....

    A county sheriff car pulled me over and I handed the officer my permit and license together. I asked him if it was okay if I reached in the glove box for my insurance card and he said, "You don't have any weapons in there, do you?" I said "no" and he said "okay". I then got him the insurance and he went back to his car and checked my license. He came back somewhat quickly and told me that I was lucky because he had a call and to slow down. Then he left. He was generally pretty courteous.

    I was thinking, though. Someone mentioned to me once that this idea of handing the cop the permit, as I did, is training the cops wrong. It's giving in to the idea that we should have to announce the exercising of our right.

    What do you think? Are you in the camp that this is a courtesy that we should show law enforcement, or perhaps a (un)necessary evil that we must comply with in order to keep from finding ourselves slammed on the concrete? Or do you think that proactively supplying your permit is training the police that your right to carry a gun should be automatically called into question?
    Last edited by independence; 09-12-2013 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,162
    Only if it is required by your jurisdiction should it be pre-emptively announced.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Only if it is required by your jurisdiction should it be pre-emptively announced.
    In TN I am not required to announce, so my question is based on that.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,162
    We have only the rights that we defend. In this, your, case, your Fourth Amendment Right to be secure in your papers, person and effects was surrendered. You sheepishly gave up that right, perhaps to avoid being slammed to the concrete. "You may beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride - the extra-legal punishment for contempt of uniformed clown. Respect is good, fear works.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Since the cop will not see a concealed sidearm anyway, there is no reason to tell him you have one when not required by law. If carrying openly or otherwise it might become visible later, you may decide to give them a heads up.

    Some jurisdictions (like NV) allow the cops too much latitude and they are allowed to disarm you for the duration of the detainment once they know about it, which involves handling your firearm. It is a very dangerous practice, in addition to its disrespectful stupidity.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-12-2013 at 03:38 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.

  7. #7
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.
    Don't know. Have heard conflicting reports.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I don't think that you had to provide it since you had no gun, the requirement is moot.

  9. #9
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I don't think that you had to provide it since you had no gun, the requirement is moot.
    What do you mean? I did have a gun. It wasn't in the glove box, but I was CCing it, as stated.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    What do you mean? I did have a gun. It wasn't in the glove box, but I was CCing it, as stated.
    Misread .. thx for the correction. Man, I am getting old.

  11. #11
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Misread .. thx for the correction. Man, I am getting old.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    727
    i live in AR just across the river from memphis, i understand in TN you are required to produce your HCP or CCW permit upon request. Ive been stopped a few times over here and they always know i have a permit but i always stick my hand out and introduce myself then inform them that i have a CCW and am carrying. Ive never had a bad experience with an LEO so far. I dont OC a whole lot though. Wife and i were on the way back from the range one day wearing safariland leg holsters and stopped into lowes to get some more mulch. It was interesting, she is 5'6" 125lbs repping a glock 19 in a leg holster lol. we got some stares.

    anyway, i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.
    Last edited by Kopis; 09-12-2013 at 05:53 PM.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    ... i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.
    I always have something to hide.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    McKenzie Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    705
    I would not handover HCP with my DL, I see no reason to mention that I have a weapon unless he brings it up first. That said if for some reason myself or my car was going to be searched I would tell them before letting them "find" it.

    As far as you HCP info, it is tied you DL, if you look they are the same number. When you DL is checked (same number and method used for HCP) whether you have a valid HCP or not is part of the information returned just like your name or address.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    McKenzie Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    anyway, i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.
    Having something to hide or not is irrelevant, it's whether my business is anyone else's business and whether I choose to share it or not.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    My lead foot almost got me in trouble this morning, while CCing. I was listening to a very interesting radio segment and lost touch with my speedometer majorly. Oops....

    I was thinking, though. Someone mentioned to me once that this idea of handing the cop the permit, as I did, is training the cops wrong. It's giving in to the idea that we should have to announce the exercising of our right...
    Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

    FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    McKenzie Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

    FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.
    Yes, in TN you must have a permit to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  18. #18
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

    FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.
    In TN, without a Handgun Carry Permit, the ammo must be separate from the gun, etc.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    727
    I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    SNIP i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.
    The second clause is non-sequitur. The latter does not follow the former.

    I don't have anything to hide. And, I never inform them.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    SNIP If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.
    Why?

    The good guys aren't going to use their gun to shoot you. The bad guys aren't going to inform you. Except for the criminal who can't keep his mouth shut, the only people who are going to tell you they're armed is the people who wouldn't use the gun on you anyway.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    SNIP I do it out of respect for the LEOs.
    Would you be willing to withhold the information out of respect for the thousands who died defending your Fourth Amendment (search and seizure) rights?



    You see, where there is no notification required, your gun is protected from gratituous serial number searches and traces by the Fourth Amendment (4A). Also protected by the 4A is your dignity as a free man among equals at having your gun returned to you unloaded, ammunition loose, and being told by the cop some version of, "Don't re-assemble/reload it until after I leave."

    When a cop wants to be notified, he is basically saying he wants you to waive your 4A rights on this subject. What's left of them.

    As long as the cop doesn't know its there, it and you are relatively safe from needless, abusive, fishing searches. The courts have eroded your 4A rights in this area severely, but have (accidentally?) left some protections. Police may not just search you or your car for a weapon without at least a reasonable suspicion a weapon might be present. (See Terry vs Ohio, Michigan vs Long, and PA vs Mimms. Linked thru the link below.)

    So, your gun and you are protected, until the cop gets a reasonable suspicion there is a weapon present. When you notify him of its presence, you waive those 4A protections--protections a lot of men died obtaining and later defending.

    Further, we have no way to know for sure until possibly too late whether the cop confronting us is a good cop, a jerk, or even a bad cop. Waiving protections right off the bat just gives the jerk cops and bad cops an opportunity. And, in this case, you can't recover them once waived.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-16-2013 at 11:09 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,138
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.
    I run a scanner in the daytime at home. The calls are some of the best comedy on the airways today. I hear traffic stops all the time for various reasons and when dispatch answers you may hear quite a bit of information. Name, warrants, suspensions, and that the registered owner has a CPL. In Washington, like Ohio, a CPL is required to be inside a vehicle (or on a motorcycle) even if you open carry. Open carry is the default method of carry here, no permit required unless you want to do something special, like hide it or use a vehicle.
    Herself got a speeding ticket the other month. She was concealed (due to fashion) and I was Open Carrying(not for fashion). The LEO knew we were armed, but that was not the issue so it did not even come up. cool
    Would I offer this information (if it were not required by law)?? Not on your life! Why stir the pot when it is not needed. Some people get very, very nervous around us because they have been trained to fear us. I heard my Deputy Chief tell me during a meeting that her LEOs were trained to equate "gun = bad guy"

    Much Blood involved in the Document. Citizen made exceptional points about the Fourth Amendment. It is up to us, as individuals and a group, to defend/support it at all times. And that includes something as minor as a traffic stop. We stand at Freedoms Gate everyday, Defend it.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    365
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.
    Waiving your rights is not generally required to signify respect, simply being polite and not making sudden movements should suffice in most police interactions.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.
    You have that backward. You deserve the respect of privacy.

    Informing the LEO does NOTHING except make them think they should be informed. While you are at it, tell him you have a pack of cigarettes, a pocket knife, and a tire iron.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •