Training the cops wrong?

OC for ME said:

Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.

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BB62 said:

Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.

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I run a scanner in the daytime at home. The calls are some of the best comedy on the airways today. I hear traffic stops all the time for various reasons and when dispatch answers you may hear quite a bit of information. Name, warrants, suspensions, and that the registered owner has a CPL. In Washington, like Ohio, a CPL is required to be inside a vehicle (or on a motorcycle) even if you open carry. Open carry is the default method of carry here, no permit required unless you want to do something special, like hide it or use a vehicle.
Herself got a speeding ticket the other month. She was concealed (due to fashion) and I was Open Carrying(not for fashion). The LEO knew we were armed, but that was not the issue so it did not even come up. cool
Would I offer this information (if it were not required by law)?? Not on your life! Why stir the pot when it is not needed. Some people get very, very nervous around us because they have been trained to fear us. I heard my Deputy Chief tell me during a meeting that her LEOs were trained to equate "gun = bad guy"

Much Blood involved in the Document. Citizen made exceptional points about the Fourth Amendment. It is up to us, as individuals and a group, to defend/support it at all times. And that includes something as minor as a traffic stop. We stand at Freedoms Gate everyday, Defend it.

Kopis said:

I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.

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Waiving your rights is not generally required to signify respect, simply being polite and not making sudden movements should suffice in most police interactions.

Kopis said:

I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.

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You have that backward. You deserve the respect of privacy.

Informing the LEO does NOTHING except make them think they should be informed. While you are at it, tell him you have a pack of cigarettes, a pocket knife, and a tire iron.

Citizen said:

The second clause is non-sequitur. The latter does not follow the former.

I don't have anything to hide. And, I never inform them.

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I always have something to hide. It's never anything illegal, but it's always something that's none of their friggin' business.

Yes

OC for ME said:

Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.

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Having interned with a DA's Office, I can confirm this. TN HCP numbers are the same as DL numbers and dispatchers are trained to inform officers of a person's gun permit status.

ProguninTN said:

Having interned with a DA's Office, I can confirm this. TN HCP numbers are the same as DL numbers and dispatchers are trained to inform officers of a person's gun permit status.

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Gotchya. So the question is whether or not it is a reasonable gesture to proactively notify them by handing them the permit when they walk up to the car instead of them finding out when they get back to their squad car.

independence said:

Gotchya. So the question is whether or not it is a reasonable gesture to proactively notify them by handing them the permit when they walk up to the car instead of them finding out when they get back to their squad car.

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Just because you have a permit, doesn't mean you are armed.

Nightmare said:

The bad guys will NEVER proactively notify a cop that they are armed, perhaps by imitating the "reasonable gesture." Just because one has a gun doesn't make one fully armed. Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and guns and the Truth.

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In theory you would be correct. There is no such doctrine in TENNESSEE law as "fully armed". In Tennessee, possessing a firearm is a crime and you, by statute have the intent to "go armed".

Ask yourself this:

Who should the officer be more concerned about, the ones that tell him they're armed or the ones that don't want him to know??

I will know when I run your license whether you have a HCP or not. Although you're not required by law to inform the officer you're armed, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

SgtScott31 said:

Ask yourself this:

Who should the officer be more concerned about, the ones that tell him they're armed or the ones that don't want him to know??

I will know when I run your license whether you have a HCP or not. Although you're not required by law to inform the officer you're armed, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

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Run my license all you want, I can guarantee that whether or not I have a license to carry will Not show up when you call it in. Relying on the laws/practices of one state and applying that same practice to other states is what one might call 'tactically unsound'.
I personally think it's respectful and courteous to tell someone what criminality you have detained them for so that they may clear their name with a minimum of fuss, but I've been told that "cops aren't required to tell you what we suspect you of because that just tells you what to lie about, so just answer the questions."

Oh, and welcome back, are you still being "A shark in a sea of crime?" I've always preferred dolphins myself, they swim in the same waters but have been known to help people rather than be predators.

SgtScott31 said:

Ask yourself this:

Who should the officer be more concerned about, the ones that tell him they're armed or the ones that don't want him to know??

I will know when I run your license whether you have a HCP or not. Although you're not required by law to inform the officer you're armed, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

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I'd think it would be respectful and courteous for an officer who already knows I'm licensed to carry to not be concerned with whether I'm currently armed.

SgtScott31 said:

Ask yourself this:

Who should the officer be more concerned about, the ones that tell him they're armed or the ones that don't want him to know??

I will know when I run your license whether you have a HCP or not. Although you're not required by law to inform the officer you're armed, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

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Although you're not required by law to inform the citizen that you will not violate his rights in any way, shape, or form, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

Fallschirmjäger said:

Run my license all you want, I can guarantee that whether or not I have a license to carry will Not show up when you call it in. Relying on the laws/practices of one state and applying that same practice to other states is what one might call 'tactically unsound'.
I personally think it's respectful and courteous to tell someone what criminality you have detained them for so that they may clear their name with a minimum of fuss, but I've been told that "cops aren't required to tell you what we suspect you of because that just tells you what to lie about, so just answer the questions."

Oh, and welcome back, are you still being "A shark in a sea of crime?" I've always preferred dolphins myself, they swim in the same waters but have been known to help people rather than be predators.

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I'm not sure about Georgia, but in TN checking your drivers license will tell a LEO whether you have a carry permit or not. In fact you HCP number and DL number are the same.

Fallguy said:

I'm not sure about Georgia, but in TN checking your drivers license will tell a LEO whether you have a carry permit or not. In fact you HCP number and DL number are the same.

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I'm sure about Georgia, and just as sure about Tennessee. The more accurate answer is ".. In Tennessee, checking your Tennessee driver's license will tell a LEO whether have a Tennessee permit or not." Checking my Georgia driver's license won't reveal a darn thing about whether or not I'm armed or even licensed to be armed (and I'm quite happy about that, honestly.)
Again, taking the facts about one state and making a blanket state that covers the other 49 only makes a foolish statement all the more obvious.

It occurs to me to wonder just what assumptions a Tennessee police officer is supposed to make now that he's armed with the knowledge that the motorist he has stopped has been issued a permit to carry a handgun.

Now that he knows, should he assume that the chances of him being involved in a running gun battle along the highway is now increased since the motorist has recently had a criminal background check and found to be an upstanding citizen?

Or, should he find that a handgun permit has not been issued, should he assume the converse? That because the motorist doesn't have a handgun permit that the possibility that he is a criminal in possession of a handgun is lessened?

Should he assume that because the motorist has, or does not have a handgun permit, that the possibility of the motorist being in possession of a sawn-off shotgun or other long arm is either increased or decreased?



Having a handgun permit doesn't make one any more likely to be a criminal than not having one and knowing that a motorist doesn't have a license does not make it any more likely that he's not a criminal in criminal possession of a handgun.

Fallschirmjäger said:

Close, but the more accurate answer is ".. In Tennessee checking your Tennessee driver's license will tell a LEO whether or not you have a Tennessee permit or not." Checking my Georgia driver's license won't reveal a darn thing about whether or not I'm armed or even licensed to be armed (and I'm quite happy about that, honestly.)
Again, taking the facts about one state and making a blanket state that covers the other 49 only makes a foolish statement all the more obvious.

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Well you are correct, I was just assuming since this is a TN Sub-Forum it was understood I was talking about TN unless otherwise noted.

However best I remember how out of state DL checks are done....if a LEO in any state ran my TN DL it would tell him I have a Handgun Carry Permit because of the way the TBI returns the information request to the other state.

SgtScott31 said:

Ask yourself this:

Who should the officer be more concerned about, the ones that tell him they're armed or the ones that don't want him to know??

I will know when I run your license whether you have a HCP or not. Although you're not required by law to inform the officer you're armed, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

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For those who are unaware, this is a glaring example of a logical fallacy known as "The False Dilemma" where a limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator.


The true answer of course is, "The officer should be most worried about the one who wishes him ill."

A motorist that doesn't want the officer to know he's armed and has no ill intent is not a threat
A motorist that does want the officer to know he's armed and has no ill intent is not a threat

A motorist, regardless of whether or not he wants the officer to know he is armed that has ill intent towards the officer... is a threat.


@Fallguy. Indeed it is the Tennessee sub-forum, however I'm assuming that Tennessee officers have on occasion stopped motorists from out of state. SgtScott31 made a broad, sweeping statement that's demonstrably false, and attention should be called to it so that other members of the forum to not make the same assumptions he did. (I seem to remember this coming up before and SgtScott31 being educated upon the same subject. Apparently that education didn't 'take'.)

Cops erring on the side of caution is good. At the expense of constitutionally protected rights of law abiding citizens, bad. However, a cop must err on the side of "all citizens are bad until evidence is present that indicates the citizen is good." Unfortunately this mindset is incompatible with liberty and cops do not have a problem with this, thanks to the courts. Citizens must endure unlawful behavior and seek a redress of wrongs as the need arises.

Fallschirmjäger said:

... SgtScott31 made a broad, sweeping statement that's demonstrably false, and attention should be called to it so that other members of the forum to not make the same assumptions he did. (I seem to remember this coming up before and SgtScott31 being educated upon the same subject. Apparently that education didn't 'take'.)

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I think it was This one
Which reminds me....

SgtScott31 said:

SNIP If I can articulate enough reasonable suspicion to detain you, then you're obligated (by law) to give me enough info to identify you. This is the case whether the involved state has a "stop and identify" statute or not.

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Citizen said:

Cite, please.

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Did you ever find that citation, SgtScott31?

OC for ME said:

Although you're not required by law to inform the citizen that you will not violate his rights in any way, shape, or form, I think it's respectful and courteous to do so.

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Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have a cell phone on your person? If not, why not?

Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have tools and spare parts in your vehicle? If not, why not?

Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have a spare tire and jack in your vehicle? If not, why not?

What's so special about having a firearm? If the officer doesn't ask, why is it "respectful and courteous" to now interject an unknown factor into what should be a simple traffic stop? If we want firearms to be ubiquitous so no one cares that LAC are carrying one, why do we constantly throw into the faces of LEOs - and then hope we don't get the Canton treatment.

If LEOs care enough, then they can care enough to ask. If they don't ask, it's none one bit of their business what I'm carrying.

If anyone is training officers wrong, it's gun owners making a big deal out of nothing - out of "respect". It's sets the expectation, where there should be none.

FTG-05 said:

Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have a cell phone on your person? If not, why not?

Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have tools and spare parts in your vehicle? If not, why not?

Is it respectful and courteous to tell the officer that you have a spare tire and jack in your vehicle? If not, why not?

What's so special about having a firearm? If the officer doesn't ask, why is it "respectful and courteous" to now interject an unknown factor into what should be a simple traffic stop? If we want firearms to be ubiquitous so no one cares that LAC are carrying one, why do we constantly throw into the faces of LEOs - and then hope we don't get the Canton treatment.

If LEOs care enough, then they can care enough to ask. If they don't ask, it's none one bit of their business what I'm carrying.

If anyone is training officers wrong, it's gun owners making a big deal out of nothing - out of "respect". It's sets the expectation, where there should be none.

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Do you have evidence on your cell phone that implicates you in a crime? Then you have a duty to inform, if you do. Blood on your tools as a result of criminal activity? You have a duty to inform. What did you do with that tire or tire jack? If criminal in nature you have a duty to inform. All of those things are ubiquitous and not normally associated with crime. Guns are associated with crime and criminals by popular culture. Guns are also the great equalizer that protects the weak and the meek from the predators that would do the weak and meek harm.

So, what's your point? So says LE and its minions.