Training the cops wrong?

My lead foot almost got me in trouble this morning, while CCing. I was listening to a very interesting radio segment and lost touch with my speedometer majorly. Oops....

A county sheriff car pulled me over and I handed the officer my permit and license together. I asked him if it was okay if I reached in the glove box for my insurance card and he said, "You don't have any weapons in there, do you?" I said "no" and he said "okay". I then got him the insurance and he went back to his car and checked my license. He came back somewhat quickly and told me that I was lucky because he had a call and to slow down. Then he left. He was generally pretty courteous.

I was thinking, though. Someone mentioned to me once that this idea of handing the cop the permit, as I did, is training the cops wrong. It's giving in to the idea that we should have to announce the exercising of our right.

What do you think? Are you in the camp that this is a courtesy that we should show law enforcement, or perhaps a (un)necessary evil that we must comply with in order to keep from finding ourselves slammed on the concrete? Or do you think that proactively supplying your permit is training the police that your right to carry a gun should be automatically called into question?

Nightmare said:

Only if it is required by your jurisdiction should it be pre-emptively announced.

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In TN I am not required to announce, so my question is based on that.

Since the cop will not see a concealed sidearm anyway, there is no reason to tell him you have one when not required by law. If carrying openly or otherwise it might become visible later, you may decide to give them a heads up.

Some jurisdictions (like NV) allow the cops too much latitude and they are allowed to disarm you for the duration of the detainment once they know about it, which involves handling your firearm. It is a very dangerous practice, in addition to its disrespectful stupidity.

Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.

OC for ME said:

Is a TN DL tied to the database that shows you have a CCW permit? In MO, they run your DL and they know if you have been issued a CCW, called M.U.L.E.S.

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Don't know. Have heard conflicting reports.

I don't think that you had to provide it since you had no gun, the requirement is moot.

davidmcbeth said:

I don't think that you had to provide it since you had no gun, the requirement is moot.

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What do you mean? I did have a gun. It wasn't in the glove box, but I was CCing it, as stated.

independence said:

What do you mean? I did have a gun. It wasn't in the glove box, but I was CCing it, as stated.

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Misread .. thx for the correction. Man, I am getting old.

davidmcbeth said:

Misread .. thx for the correction. Man, I am getting old.

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:lol:

i live in AR just across the river from memphis, i understand in TN you are required to produce your HCP or CCW permit upon request. Ive been stopped a few times over here and they always know i have a permit but i always stick my hand out and introduce myself then inform them that i have a CCW and am carrying. Ive never had a bad experience with an LEO so far. I dont OC a whole lot though. Wife and i were on the way back from the range one day wearing safariland leg holsters and stopped into lowes to get some more mulch. It was interesting, she is 5'6" 125lbs repping a glock 19 in a leg holster lol. we got some stares.

anyway, i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.

Kopis said:

... i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.

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I always have something to hide.

I would not handover HCP with my DL, I see no reason to mention that I have a weapon unless he brings it up first. That said if for some reason myself or my car was going to be searched I would tell them before letting them "find" it.

As far as you HCP info, it is tied you DL, if you look they are the same number. When you DL is checked (same number and method used for HCP) whether you have a valid HCP or not is part of the information returned just like your name or address.

Kopis said:

anyway, i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.

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Having something to hide or not is irrelevant, it's whether my business is anyone else's business and whether I choose to share it or not.

independence said:

My lead foot almost got me in trouble this morning, while CCing. I was listening to a very interesting radio segment and lost touch with my speedometer majorly. Oops....

I was thinking, though. Someone mentioned to me once that this idea of handing the cop the permit, as I did, is training the cops wrong. It's giving in to the idea that we should have to announce the exercising of our right...

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Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.

BB62 said:

Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.

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Yes, in TN you must have a permit to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle.

BB62 said:

Do you have to have a license to CCW in a car in TN? If so, you are not exercising your right, you're exercising a privilege.

FYI - unfortunately, in OH, CCW in a vehicle is a privilege.

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In TN, without a Handgun Carry Permit, the ammo must be separate from the gun, etc.

I just do it out of respect for the LEOs. They get enough sh*t out there I'm sure. If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.

Kopis said:

SNIP i dont have anything to hide so i always inform them.

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The second clause is non-sequitur. The latter does not follow the former.

I don't have anything to hide. And, I never inform them.

Kopis said:

SNIP If i was an LEO, i'd want to be informed.

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Why?

The good guys aren't going to use their gun to shoot you. The bad guys aren't going to inform you. Except for the criminal who can't keep his mouth shut, the only people who are going to tell you they're armed is the people who wouldn't use the gun on you anyway.

Kopis said:

SNIP I do it out of respect for the LEOs.

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Would you be willing to withhold the information out of respect for the thousands who died defending your Fourth Amendment (search and seizure) rights?



You see, where there is no notification required, your gun is protected from gratituous serial number searches and traces by the Fourth Amendment (4A). Also protected by the 4A is your dignity as a free man among equals at having your gun returned to you unloaded, ammunition loose, and being told by the cop some version of, "Don't re-assemble/reload it until after I leave."

When a cop wants to be notified, he is basically saying he wants you to waive your 4A rights on this subject. What's left of them.

As long as the cop doesn't know its there, it and you are relatively safe from needless, abusive, fishing searches. The courts have eroded your 4A rights in this area severely, but have (accidentally?) left some protections. Police may not just search you or your car for a weapon without at least a reasonable suspicion a weapon might be present. (See Terry vs Ohio, Michigan vs Long, and PA vs Mimms. Linked thru the link below.)

So, your gun and you are protected, until the cop gets a reasonable suspicion there is a weapon present. When you notify him of its presence, you waive those 4A protections--protections a lot of men died obtaining and later defending.

Further, we have no way to know for sure until possibly too late whether the cop confronting us is a good cop, a jerk, or even a bad cop. Waiving protections right off the bat just gives the jerk cops and bad cops an opportunity. And, in this case, you can't recover them once waived.


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&