Training the cops wrong?

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

Missouri does not issue handgun carry permits. Missouri does not issue weapons possession permits (think Illinois FOID card), Missouri has no mandate to register any firearm.

The Missouri constitution, Art. I, Sec. 23, makes a implicit distinction between OC and CCW. CCW can be regulated by law, OC can not (it can be by statute unfortunately, but this is a different issue).

It is against TN law to carry a pistol without a permit (HCP). 39-17-1307 makes the carry of a pistol a crime with no distinction made for OC or CC. I think CT has a similar situation.

Missouri law only addresses CC because OC is a implied (the words "open carry" not written) right and our statutes conform to this.....sort of.

Anyway.....a MO CCW endorsement is only for the CCing (exempts me from the CC is a criminal offense law) of a pistol that we can carry OC without a permit.

SgtScott31 has affirmed this several times, I think, and I take him at his word as a active LEO in TN.

So, if SgtScott31 thinks I am armed in TN, my MO CCW endorsement 9CC only) does not meet the requirements set forth in 39-17-1351 (carry regardless of method) because a MO CCW endorsement is not a weapons carry permit but a weapons concealing permit.

Fallguy · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
A MO CCW endorsement does not meet the requirements of this portion of the statute.

Based on TN's reciprocity web page my MO CCW endorsement is not recognized by TN. Mo recognizes a TN HCP. That is anti-liberty and so is TN.

http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

Bye bye TN, not one more dime to you. I'll be passing this along to my fellow Missouri citizens.

Many states do not have written reciprocity agreements with TN but that doesn't mean they don't "honor" each other's permits.

independence said:
Okay, I think I'm with you now. You are saying that 39-17-1308 provides 39-17-1351 as a defense to 39-17-1307 and that 39-17-1351 does not include non-residents....Did I get it right this time?

39-17-1351(r)(1) specifically says a valid permit issued by ANY other state is the same as a permit issued by TN.

I'm sure people form MO carry in TN everyday without any problems. I'm sure some have had their permit/endorsement checked without problem.

But if don't want to carry in TN, so be it.

Fallguy · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
Missouri does not issue handgun carry permits. Missouri does not issue weapons possession permits (think Illinois FOID card), Missouri has no mandate to register any firearm.

The Missouri constitution, Art. I, Sec. 23, makes a implicit distinction between OC and CCW. CCW can be regulated by law, OC can not (it can be by statute unfortunately, but this is a different issue).

It is against TN law to carry a pistol without a permit (HCP). 39-17-1307 makes the carry of a pistol a crime with no distinction made for OC or CC. I think CT has a similar situation.

Missouri law only addresses CC because OC is a implied (the words "open carry" not written) right and our statutes conform to this.....sort of.

Anyway.....a MO CCW endorsement is only for the CCing (exempts me from the CC is a criminal offense law) of a pistol that we can carry OC without a permit.

SgtScott31 has affirmed this several times, I think, and I take him at his word as a active LEO in TN.

So, if SgtScott31 thinks I am armed in TN, my MO CCW endorsement 9CC only) does not meet the requirements set forth in 39-17-1351 (carry regardless of method) because a MO CCW endorsement is not a weapons carry permit but a weapons concealing permit.

All states except Vermont that allow OC and CC without a permit or OC only without a permit, still issue permits. If you are a resident of one of those states and do not have a permit, you can not carry in TN, if you don't have a permit issued by that state, whether it is for concealing only, handguns only or all weapons, it is the same as HCP issued by TN while you are in TN which means you can OC or CC. Or course it would also mean you can only carry a handgun and not other weapons that maybe allowed by the state of issue.

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

States Recognizing TN Permits

....

* Indicates the state has a formal reciprocity agreement with Tennessee

http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

I think the little asterisk, that is not by Missouri, on the above page means that TN does not recognize my MO CCW endorsement. I could be wrong

39-17-1351. Handgun carry permits.

(r)(3)(A) The commissioner of safety shall enter into written reciprocity agreements with other states that require the execution of the agreements. The commissioner of safety shall prepare and publicly publish a current list of states honoring permits issued by the state of Tennessee and shall make the list available to anyone upon request. The commissioner of safety shall also prepare and publicly publish a current list of states who, after inquiry by the commissioner, refuse to enter into a reciprocity agreement with this state or honor handgun carry permits issued by this state. To the extent that any state may impose conditions in the reciprocity agreements, the commissioner of safety shall publish those conditions as part of the list. If another state imposes conditions on Tennessee permit holders in a reciprocity agreement, the conditions shall also become a part of the agreement and apply to the other state's permit holders when they carry a handgun in this state.

The wording of this sub-section is not entirely clear to me. I will take it as confirming that TN does not recognize my MO endorsement based on the above cited *note.

Fallschirjmäger · Oct 9, 2013

You may be reading too much into it.
Many (well all states, really) have an agreement to recognize driver's licenses from other states. Those states recognize driver's licenses, driver permits, operator permits and operator licenses as all being equal.

There is a recent case in Opencarryorg - Arkansas where one subdivision of the State Police tried to make the case that since an Arkansas permit was for a "concealed handgun" that a "concealed weapon" permit would not be recognized in Arkansas.

It didn't take long for a higher unit of the Arkansas State Police to issue a correction.

I can saw with a certain amount of conviction that a Georgia Weapons Carry License is perfectly fine for carrying in the great state of Tennessee and that a Tennessee license is just as welcome in Georgia.

Specifically to the point -
Missouri is listed as being recognized in Tennessee according to the Tennessee Government website as having a license/permit recognized by the state of Tennessee.
Missouri is listed as being recognized in Tennessee, according to the Missouri Attorney General's Office website

Fallguy · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
I think the little asterisk, that is not by Missouri, on the above page means that TN does not recognize my MO CCW endorsement. I could be wrong

The wording of this sub-section is not entirely clear to me. I will take it as confirming that TN does not recognize my MO endorsement based on the above cited *note.

No, the little astrick just means there is not a formal written reciprocity agreement. But by law TN honors ALL other states' permits.

The sub-section mean if State A requires a written agreement before it will honor TN permits then the commissioner will enter into such an agreement. Many states no longer require such agreements or don't do them period, but if a state does, TN will enter into one.

Fallguy · Oct 9, 2013

If a state issues ANYTHING that allows you go to armed in public and you have one, then you can OC or CC a handgun(s) in TN.

It's really just that simple.

independence · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
Missouri does not issue handgun carry permits. Missouri does not issue weapons possession permits (think Illinois FOID card), Missouri has no mandate to register any firearm.

The Missouri constitution, Art. I, Sec. 23, makes a implicit distinction between OC and CCW. CCW can be regulated by law, OC can not (it can be by statute unfortunately, but this is a different issue).

It is against TN law to carry a pistol without a permit (HCP). 39-17-1307 makes the carry of a pistol a crime with no distinction made for OC or CC. I think CT has a similar situation.

Missouri law only addresses CC because OC is a implied (the words "open carry" not written) right and our statutes conform to this.....sort of.

Anyway.....a MO CCW endorsement is only for the CCing (exempts me from the CC is a criminal offense law) of a pistol that we can carry OC without a permit.

SgtScott31 has affirmed this several times, I think, and I take him at his word as a active LEO in TN.

So, if SgtScott31 thinks I am armed in TN, my MO CCW endorsement 9CC only) does not meet the requirements set forth in 39-17-1351 (carry regardless of method) because a MO CCW endorsement is not a weapons carry permit but a weapons concealing permit.

Ah, so you are caught up on this language: "handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license". Please understand that this language is NOT referring to gun registration. (We don't have gun registration in TN, either!) I can prove this by showing the way handgun permit is used in other sections of 39-17-1351:

"On an annual basis, the comptroller of the treasury shall audit the bureau to ensure that the extra fifteen dollars ($15.00) received from each handgun permit application fee is being used exclusively for the purpose set forth in this subsection ( p )."

"However, if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit."

None of these quotes are referring to gun registration. It's just poorly written so that Handgun Carry Permit and handgun permit mean the same thing. You can carry in TN, bro.

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

Fallguy said:
.....39-17-1351(r)(1) specifically says a valid permit issued by ANY other state is the same as a permit issued by TN.

I'm sure people form MO carry in TN everyday without any problems. I'm sure some have had their permit/endorsement checked without problem.

But if don't want to carry in TN, so be it.

I disagree, 39-17-1307 does not state that.

39-17-1351. Handgun carry permits.

(r) (1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

The way I read the above is that you must have a permit that is closer to a FOID (Illinois) and not a simple CCW permit, where OC is lawful without any type (branded) permit. TN has a possession permit and MO does not.....sort of, depending on where you live.

The "according to its terms" may mean that my MO CCW endorsement could be a defense if a LEO decides that it does. I would hope that any given LEO in TN would consider my MO CCW endorsement a defense, but they may be hard pressed to prove that it is if they are questioned on why they let me be on my way. Words mean things, even in legal writings.

I certainly hope I am wrong in my readings. Now, if there is any case law that refutes my contention then please correct my contention. Traveling through TN is by far easier, except on a Saturday, during a Vols home game, than driving through KY to get to SC.

independence · Oct 9, 2013

Fallguy said:
No, the little astrick just means there is not a formal written reciprocity agreement. But by law TN honors ALL other states' permits.

The sub-section mean if State A requires a written agreement before it will honor TN permits then the commissioner will enter into such an agreement. Many states no longer require such agreements or don't do them period, but if a state does, TN will enter into one.

Right!

OC for Me: You are totally misunderstanding what you are reading at this link: http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

The reciprocity reference is under the section entitled "States Recognizing TN Permits"! This NOT about TN recognizing other states. It is about other states recognizing TN! TN recognizes ALL OTHER STATES. The reciprocity statement in that link has nothing to do with it at all.

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

independence said:
Ah, so you are caught up on this language: "handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license". Please understand that this language is NOT referring to gun registration. (We don't have gun registration in TN, either!) I can prove this by showing the way handgun permit is used in other sections of 39-17-1351:

<snip>

None of these quotes are referring to gun registration. It's just poorly written so that Handgun Carry Permit and handgun permit mean the same thing. You can carry in TN, bro.

I think we are getting closer. I know that TN does not have gun registration, as does Illinois (FOID). But, the terms used in 39-17-1307 do not use concealed or open. Thus, in TN you may not carry a gun (pistol) on your person beyond your private property.

In MO, carrying concealed is unlawful, OC is not mentioned.....sort of, and thus no permit/license/endorsement is required to possess or carry. Gun registration is not a component of this discussion because MO nor TN mandate gun registration (serial #s, model, mfr....).

Anyway, if there is any official ruling or opinion that a simple CCW permit (Missouri) is a defense for 39-17-1307 please let me know. Until then I must go around TN on my way to SC.

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

independence said:
Right!

OC for Me: You are totally misunderstanding what you are reading at this link: http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

The reciprocity reference is under the section entitled "States Recognizing TN Permits"! This NOT about TN recognizing other states. It is about other states recognizing TN! TN recognizes ALL OTHER STATES. The reciprocity statement in that link has nothing to do with it at all.

States Recognizing TN Permits

Alabama

Alaska*

Arizona*

Arkansas*

Colorado

Delaware

Florida*

Georgia*

Idaho

Indiana

Iowa

Kansas

Kentucky*

Louisiana*

Michigan*

Minnesota

Mississippi*

Missouri

Montana

Nebraska

Nevada

New Hampshire*

New Mexico*

North Carolina*

North Dakota

Oklahoma

Ohio*

Pennsylvania*

South Carolina*

South Dakota*

Texas*

Utah

Vermont

Virginia*

Washington*

West Virginia*

Wisconsin

Wyoming*

* Indicates the state has a formal reciprocity agreement with Tennessee

All of the above states recognize the TN permit. Only the states with a asterisk have a reciprocity agreement (recognizes that states "permit). Now, if all of the above states "permits are recognized then why the * ?

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
All of the above states recognize the TN permit. Only the states with a asterisk have a reciprocity agreement (recognizes that states "permit). Now, if all of the above states "permits are recognized then why the * ?

besides.

States Not Recognizing TN Permits

California

Connecticut

Hawaii

Illinois

Maine

Maryland

Massachusetts

New Jersey

New York

Oregon

Rhode Island

California issues permits as does NY.....good luck getting one, but they do issue them. Thus no asterisk is indicated by CA or any of the other states listed above.

Nope, until there is official confirmation from the state of TN then I will continue to encourage armed MO citizens to avoid TN.

OC for ME · Oct 9, 2013

I retract. I should have read Missouri's web site first. :banghead:

independence · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
I retract. I should have read Missouri's web site first. :banghead:

Let's have the link.

independence · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
I retract. I should have read Missouri's web site first. :banghead:

What you need to understand about reciprocity is that it is only necessary from other states. Tennessee will enter into reciprocity with other states only because it is THEIR requirement for Tennessee residents carrying in THEIR states. It has nothing to do with those who are not Tennessee residents carrying in Tennessee for the simple fact that Tennessee recognizes all other states' permits.

independence · Oct 9, 2013

independence said:
Let's have the link.

And here's the link...

http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

See? We DO want your money! Safe travels through our state!...

independence · Oct 9, 2013

independence said:
And here's the link...

http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

See? We DO want your money! Safe travels through our state!...

And also confirmed by the NRA: http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/missouri.aspx

And HandGunLaw.us: http://handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

Fallguy · Oct 9, 2013

OC for ME said:
besides.

California issues permits as does NY.....good luck getting one, but they do issue them. Thus no asterisk is indicated by CA or any of the other states listed above.
[/LIST]

Nope, until there is official confirmation from the state of TN then I will continue to encourage armed MO citizens to avoid TN.

The laws the others and I have quoted is all I can offer you. If that is not enough and you think you've caught something that officials from both states as well as hundreds of residents of MO & TN that carry, then by all means go around.

OC for ME · Oct 10, 2013

independence said:
And here's the link...

http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

See? We DO want your money! Safe travels through our state!...

Thanks. As I have stated previously, TN is a beautiful state, except for a sliver of Knoxville, between I-140/I-40 and exit 398 of I-40 during a Vols home game.

Training the cops wrong?

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Active member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member