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Thread: Denied CPL in wayne county

  1. #1
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    Denied CPL in wayne county

    Hello All,

    I have a question for michigan residents with CPL's preferrably in wayne or Oakland county.
    I applied for my CPL 4 weeks ago. Today I received a letter from the wayne county clerk saying my
    application was denied and I could appear before the gun board with court documentation for review.
    Ok so here's my back story 8 yrs and 6 months ago I received a DWLS 2nd offense ticket. It was adjudicated 2 months later. I was never arrested. I paid the fees, and have not been in trouble since. It was a dumb youthful mistake. On Aug 14th of this year, I applied for my CPL. Per the CPL requirements in michigan it has been over 8 yrs, so I should have been good to go, but I guess not. I don't understand why I was denied? I went today to pick up my clearance and court docs showing the case was closed, an it has been closed over 8yrs ago, for the gun board hearing. Is there anything else that I would need to take the meeting? Am I wasting my time fighting this? Any help or insight that anyone has would be helpful.
    Thanks,

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    Take a lawyer with you. The police will find any excuse to deny a person. You have to force them to comply with the law.

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    Thanks Casper, I was really hoping it would not come to that. But I fear that you maybe right, it might be time to retain an attorney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Take a lawyer with you.
    Follow the money. The law is a mule that lawyers ride to work.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I agree with the friendly ghost...lawyer up. If Saul Goodman practiced law in Michigan I'd probably go with him, but since he doesn't I'd recommend finding an attorney who specializes in firearm laws in Michigan.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Follow the money. The law is a mule that lawyers ride to work.
    You've definitely got a point there.

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    Why did you not attend your gun board meeting? If you have priors I'd have been there for sure. You should be able to FOIA the gun board meeting minutes. You're at a point now where you need to know what specific reasons you were denied with the details of their conversation about you and setup an appeal with an attorney.

    I'm confused by your post. You stated you needed to get court docs for the gun board hearing. That seems like you did attend? What exactly was talked about and their statements for denying you??
    Mike
    Last edited by mikestilly; 09-13-2013 at 12:51 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Why did you not attend your gun board meeting? If you have priors I'd have been there for sure. You should be able to FOIA the gun board meeting minutes. You're at a point now where you need to know what specific reasons you were denied with the details of their conversation about you and setup an appeal with an attorney.

    I'm confused by your post. You stated you needed to get court docs for the gun board hearing. That seems like you did attend? What exactly was talked about and their statements for denying you??
    Mike
    This!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    This!
    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Why did you not attend your gun board meeting? If you have priors I'd have been there for sure. You should be able to FOIA the gun board meeting minutes. You're at a point now where you need to know what specific reasons you were denied with the details of their conversation about you and setup an appeal with an attorney.

    I'm confused by your post. You stated you needed to get court docs for the gun board hearing. That seems like you did attend? What exactly was talked about and their statements for denying you??
    Mike
    Mike, I have not attended the gun board meeting. It is not scheduled until later this month. I do plan on attending. The court docs that I picked up are from the DWLS 2nd offense charge that is over 8 yrs old. Per the denial the paper stated it that I need to bring official court paperwork/ docs regarding the disposition of DWLS 2nd offense charge to the board meeting.

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    Attorney

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnyday1 View Post
    Mike, I have not attended the gun board meeting. It is not scheduled until later this month. I do plan on attending. The court docs that I picked up are from the DWLS 2nd offense charge that is over 8 yrs old. Per the denial the paper stated it that I need to bring official court paperwork/ docs regarding the disposition of DWLS 2nd offense charge to the board meeting.
    Try Nancy Moore in Livonia, I used her 8 years ago when i was denied, filed appeal meet at gun board meeting no waiting in line if u have counsel. approved

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnyday1 View Post
    Mike, I have not attended the gun board meeting. It is not scheduled until later this month. I do plan on attending. The court docs that I picked up are from the DWLS 2nd offense charge that is over 8 yrs old. Per the denial the paper stated it that I need to bring official court paperwork/ docs regarding the disposition of DWLS 2nd offense charge to the board meeting.
    I suspect mikestilly and Dr. Todd meant 'why didn't you attend the original hearing'.

    Given the nature of Wayne County, I also suspect you may not have known you could, or when it was.

    Am I bridging the gap correctly?

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Denied CPL in wayne county

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    I suspect mikestilly and Dr. Todd meant 'why didn't you attend the original hearing'.

    Given the nature of Wayne County, I also suspect you may not have known you could, or when it was.

    Am I bridging the gap correctly?
    Wayne Co. Or WaCo - is well known for mailing notices at the very last minute. Often the person may only get it within a day or two of the meeting date. They are also famous for putting the wrong room # or even floor #'s on notices. WaCo. discourages the public from attending, telling people, if they did not receive a notice they cannot attend. They know they are wrong, they just don't care about what the law says. You are dealing not only with the crooked board, but the several layers of inept, know nothing clerks, all doing the turtle shuffle and getting paid to make sure your experience is a poor one. They are EXPERTS only at that.
    WaCo has many policies that they try to pass off as "law" to the uneducated public. The Wayne County Gun Board is one of the most anti IMHO. They are often forced to comply by a court order to issues permits. Look at it this way - shady people, so expect shady practices and lots of petty games on their part.

    A snakes den for sure, IMHO.

    ETA- Hopefully one day MI will change to a centralized CPL system where the state police issue permits. Not perfect, but far less chance of some local GB with a agenda screwing with people.

    Compared to the staff @ WaCo this guy is a world class sprinter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5BMVmOWzfk
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 09-17-2013 at 07:30 PM.
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    That's correct Evil Creamsickle
    I didn't know when the original board meeting was scheduled' or that I needed to attend.

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    Something you need to understand is that the CPL process is geared towards weeding out people who act in irresponsible ways. One of the methods used to accomplish this is to look at the Driving record of an applicant because irresponsible behavior routinely shows up on ones driving record. In addition it actually takes a bit of effort to earn a 2nd offense for Driving with License Suspended. To get there you had to have a history of driving offenses that led to your suspended license and to get busted for driving on a suspended license you had to have committed another driving offense in order to be stopped. To be blunt, a bit more that 8 years ago you were a real idiot with a miserable record and as a result your past history is a strike against you. Enough so that the Gun Board has made the decision to call you in to explain your past behavior and provide evidence that you have reformed your ways.

    Some good news is that I don't think you need a lawyer if you have truly mended your ways. However, the bad news is that you will have to show that you have been a very responsible driver since that last infraction and that more than 8 years have elapsed. BTW, if you have 4 or more points on your current license I would expect that you'll be denied a CPL based on a combination of past offenses and a current history of a less than ideal driving record. In this particular case a Lawyer might be able to weasle you a permit but it will probably be costly. If you have zero points on your driving record with no infractions since that DWLS I would expect that you'll be granted a permit once you've provided documentation of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter123 View Post
    Something you need to understand is that the CPL process is geared towards weeding out people who act in irresponsible ways. One of the methods used to accomplish this is to look at the Driving record of an applicant because irresponsible behavior routinely shows up on ones driving record. In addition it actually takes a bit of effort to earn a 2nd offense for Driving with License Suspended. To get there you had to have a history of driving offenses that led to your suspended license and to get busted for driving on a suspended license you had to have committed another driving offense in order to be stopped. To be blunt, a bit more that 8 years ago you were a real idiot with a miserable record and as a result your past history is a strike against you. Enough so that the Gun Board has made the decision to call you in to explain your past behavior and provide evidence that you have reformed your ways.

    Some good news is that I don't think you need a lawyer if you have truly mended your ways. However, the bad news is that you will have to show that you have been a very responsible driver since that last infraction and that more than 8 years have elapsed. BTW, if you have 4 or more points on your current license I would expect that you'll be denied a CPL based on a combination of past offenses and a current history of a less than ideal driving record. In this particular case a Lawyer might be able to weasle you a permit but it will probably be costly. If you have zero points on your driving record with no infractions since that DWLS I would expect that you'll be granted a permit once you've provided documentation of that.
    +1 Totally agree with this post. I would NOT support a CPL for a person with a second DWLS unless they could clearly demonstrate they have cleaned up their ways.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    +1 Totally agree with this post. I would NOT support a CPL for a person with a second DWLS unless they could clearly demonstrate they have cleaned up their ways.
    so a DWLS should stop a person from exercising a right? gotcha
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Denied CPL in wayne county

    Now, now.

    Is this a issue? Sure, the OP made mistakes. He could of OC'd without a cpl - so atleast he didn't lose all his rights to defense. That permission slip sure makes it a heck of a lot easier though and safer in my opinion. Less load/unloading going on in public places. MI laws sometimes don't factor public safety into the mix enough IMHO..

    Constitutional Carry would eliminate a lot of the issues in MI, if the legislators could ever find a will/ way to pass it.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 09-23-2013 at 12:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    so a DWLS should stop a person from exercising a right? gotcha
    Only people with squeaky clean records think that way, just my opinion though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    so a DWLS should stop a person from exercising a right? gotcha
    Once is a mistake twice is a pattern.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizzi01 View Post
    Once is a mistake twice is a pattern.
    still not seeing how that should effect his RIGHT to keep and bear arms? The whole CPL thing is a joke to me, "here, we give you permission to exercise your RIGHT to keep and bear arms."
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  21. #21
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    still not seeing how that should effect his RIGHT to keep and bear arms? The whole CPL thing is a joke to me, "here, we give you permission to exercise your RIGHT to keep and bear arms."
    +1.

    Having a history of making poor driving decisions can be, and was, punished with a revocation of the PRIVILEGE of being able to drive.
    If someone has a history of perjury, should they be denied their right to free speech?
    If someone has a history of gang-fighting should they be denied their right to peaceably assemble?
    Should a former soldier convicted of desertion be forced to quarter soldiers in their home?
    Should an epileptic be denied their freedom from unreasonable siezure?

    OK the last one was a joke but, I think you get my point.

    ETA: My examples were even more related than the actual situation. I suppose a more realistic idiocy would be having two offenses for operating a fork-lift without a certification and losing your right to free speech because of it.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 09-25-2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason: had a realization...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    still not seeing how that should effect his RIGHT to keep and bear arms? The whole CPL thing is a joke to me, "here, we give you permission to exercise your RIGHT to keep and bear arms."

    If you can't control yourself and break minor laws multiple times , are you to be trusted carrying a concealed pistol?

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    Name one person who does not ever break any laws. If you carry anywhere near a school you are breaking fed law, if you go one mph over the speed limit you are breaking the law by not going to posted limit. Just because he has something from 8 years ago does not mean he should be banned from having the ability to protect himself or his family. What if this was you, would you still think the same way that you are thinking now, or is it the fact that you are not the one being denied that allows you the ability to sit there and pass judgement.

    And sorry if that is rude or mean or anything, I just hate when people cast the first stone.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7om5hipp View Post
    Name one person who does not ever break any laws. If you carry anywhere near a school you are breaking fed law, if you go one mph over the speed limit you are breaking the law by not going to posted limit. Just because he has something from 8 years ago does not mean he should be banned from having the ability to protect himself or his family. What if this was you, would you still think the same way that you are thinking now, or is it the fact that you are not the one being denied that allows you the ability to sit there and pass judgement.

    And sorry if that is rude or mean or anything, I just hate when people cast the first stone.....
    A big +1 to that Sir.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    An individual who believes he does not "break minor laws multiple times" is simply ignorant of the extent of law.

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