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Thread: If you record, do NOT do this...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Obi Wan's Avatar
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    If you record, do NOT do this...

    As I am figuring all this out, being new-ish to OC,
    I seek the advice of the forum.
    Which I am very grateful for.

    It seems good to record, video / audio / both during a LEO encounter.
    I have prepared to do that, using QIK, so that it cannot be erased.
    Works great!

    However, it seems that how one responds to a request to stop recording
    may get one in trouble.

    For example:

    LEO: I'm going to ask you to stop recording.
    LAC: I have every right to record you. (violating the 'no talking' rule)
    LEO: Give me that camera right now!
    LAC: If you turn that off I will file criminal charges!


    RCW 9A.76.180
    Intimidating a public servant.

    (1) A person is guilty of intimidating a public servant if, by use of a threat,
    he or she attempts to influence a public servant's
    vote, opinion, decision,
    or other official action as a public servant.

    (2) For purposes of this section "public servant" shall not include jurors.

    (3) "Threat" as used in this section means:

    (a) To communicate, directly or indirectly, the intent immediately to use force against any person who is present at the time; or

    (b) Threats as defined in RCW 9A.04.110.


    RCW 9A.04.110
    Definitions.

    (28) "Threat" means to communicate, directly or indirectly the intent:

    (d) To accuse any person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against any person;

    RCW 9A.76.180

    (4) Intimidating a public servant is a class B felony.



    As I read it, I have just committed a class B felony by threatening to accuse
    a public servant of a crime and / or threatening to file criminal charges.

    Right?

    Obi Wan
    Last edited by Obi Wan; 09-13-2013 at 06:49 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: If you record, do NOT do this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan View Post
    As I am figuring all this out, being new-ish to OC,
    I seek the advice of the forum.
    Which I am very grateful for.

    It seems good to record, video / audio / both during a LEO encounter.
    I have prepared to do that, using QIK, so that it cannot be erased.
    Works great!

    However, it seems that how one responds to a request to stop recording
    may get one in trouble.

    For example:

    LEO: I'm going to ask you to stop recording.
    LAC: I have every right to record you. (violating the 'no talking' rule)
    LEO: Give me that camera right now!
    LAC: If you turn that off I will file criminal charges!


    RCW 9A.76.180
    Intimidating a public servant.

    (1) A person is guilty of intimidating a public servant if, by use of a threat,
    he or she attempts to influence a public servant's
    vote, opinion, decision,
    or other official action as a public servant.

    (2) For purposes of this section "public servant" shall not include jurors.

    (3) "Threat" as used in this section means:

    (a) To communicate, directly or indirectly, the intent immediately to use force against any person who is present at the time; or

    (b) Threats as defined in RCW 9A.04.110.


    RCW 9A.04.110
    Definitions.

    (28) "Threat" means to communicate, directly or indirectly the intent:

    (d) To accuse any person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against any person;

    RCW 9A.76.180

    (4) Intimidating a public servant is a class B felony.



    As I read it, I have just committed a class B felony by threatening to accuse
    a public servant of a crime and / or threatening to file criminal charges.

    Right?

    Obi Wan
    I am sure it is not a crime to remind him that his actions would be criminal in nature and potentially subject to repercussions. That is not a threat. Merely a statement of fact and a gentle reminder that you are not ignorant.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arab1302 View Post
    I am sure it is not a crime to remind him that his actions would be criminal in nature and potentially subject to repercussions. That is not a threat. Merely a statement of fact and a gentle reminder that you are not ignorant.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
    I concur. I've made similar statements to state agents who had threatened to steal my property. I will not repeat the words here though.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quoting what the law allows is not communicating a threat.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Re: If you record, do NOT do this...

    You underlined the word decision. In this context that term is only in reference to official decisions, like the decision of s health inspector to fail your restaurant, or of a police officer to arrest you. It does not apply to all decisions the officer makes, like the decision to tell you to turn off your camera. Telling you to turn off a camera is also almost never an official action because the don't have the legal right to tell you to do so, so that part does not apply.

    On a related note, if a police officer tells you to turn the camera off or he will arrest you, or indicates he will take it from you forcibly, that is in fact coercion, and he is the criminal in the situation.

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    Last edited by arentol; 09-13-2013 at 09:11 PM.

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    I've already encountered this somewhat ... when threatening a citizens arrest.

    Nope, not a threat because a CA is a legal act and the law is an improper CA is a civil offense, not criminal.

    I guess a cop could sue you .. maybe he would get five dollars? So threaten a citizens arrest.

  7. #7
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I've already encountered this somewhat ... when threatening a citizens arrest.

    Nope, not a threat because a CA is a legal act and the law is an improper CA is a civil offense, not criminal.

    I guess a cop could sue you .. maybe he would get five dollars? So threaten a citizens arrest.
    You could not get sued by the cop, that won't fly. However, if the cop does steal your property "under color of law", you can sue him, and his supervisor, union and jurisdiction, under federal law 42 USC 1983

  8. #8
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I've already encountered this somewhat ... when threatening a citizens arrest.

    Nope, not a threat because a CA is a legal act and the law is an improper CA is a civil offense, not criminal.

    I guess a cop could sue you .. maybe he would get five dollars? So threaten a citizens arrest.
    Oh gosh.... you need to stop with this ******** you're spewing before someone who doesn't vet your dumb ass out tries this crap and gets arrested.

    performing a citizens arrest on a police officer in the line of their duties you will be beaten/tazed/sprayed/shot/killed/arrested and charged with assaulting an officer. you will be offered a plea bargain, and probably you're too dumb to take one so you'll go to trial be found guilty and sent up the river. hope your plans for the next years are flexible.

    geez, assaulting an officer being a civil offense? file a notice of trespass against your local LEA? sell guns as an FFL to out of state residents? where the hell do you come up with this stuff?
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  9. #9
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Oh gosh.... you need to stop with this ******** you're spewing before someone who doesn't vet your dumb ass out tries this crap and gets arrested.

    performing a citizens arrest on a police officer in the line of their duties you will be beaten/tazed/sprayed/shot/killed/arrested and charged with assaulting an officer. you will be offered a plea bargain, and probably you're too dumb to take one so you'll go to trial be found guilty and sent up the river. hope your plans for the next years are flexible.

    geez, assaulting an officer being a civil offense? file a notice of trespass against your local LEA? sell guns as an FFL to out of state residents? where the hell do you come up with this stuff?
    Really?

    So I can't arrest a cop committing a crime, in my presence, that's disturbing the peace/public?

    Interesting. Last time I checked, case law allowed such 'citizen arrests', and I don't see any exemption from being arrested, because you're a cop.

    It also says it's against the law to resist an unlawful arrest.

    So, let them beat you up and possibly kill you, THEN you can take them to court...

    So, if I don't resist, I might get beaten up or killed, but I'm surely not 'getting away'... The cop has made that clear.
    If I do resist, I still might get beaten up or killed, but I also have a chance of 'getting away', and taking out a corrupt cop in the process.

    How about... you know your skills and abilities, and choose to use or not use them. You know what you do/don't have concealed or on your person. Be prepared for an attack on your person, start carrying objects that can be used as weapons at a moments notice. Get a good pen, a nice metal pen..

    I've had WAY too many guns pointed at me in my life, ALL OF THEM by cops, where no threat existed. If I'm met with the threat of lethal force, I will respond accordingly. F(#% what clothing you happen to be wearing that day.

    Ever hear the saying 'Don't be afraid of the man who has everything, be afraid of the man who has nothing to lose' ?

    Not only is it your RIGHT to resist, it's your damned RESPONSIBILITY to resist. Further, it's EVERYONE'S responsibility to take corrupt cops off the street, in any (legal) way possible. If that means citizens arrest, well, they will probably resist, which they probably will, and most likely with lethal force, and well, at that point it becomes a self defense case, now doesn't it?

    Hell, I can legally take his gun from him too, if I wanted. There's a law making it unlawful to disarm a peace officer, but there's also an exemption if that officer is 'engaged in criminal conduct'.

    There are laws, then there are morals. This country and its legal system are so corrupt, that even clearly unconstitutional laws are being upheld.

    "Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting
    officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306


    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 09-14-2013 at 04:58 AM.
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    All states may not allow a citizen's arrest .. please chk your state law.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan View Post
    ...As I read it, I have just committed a class B felony by threatening to accuse
    a public servant of a crime and / or threatening to file criminal charges.

    Right?
    Your use of the word "if" properly means no. You would only accuse him IF he committed the crime. Doesn't the law do the same thing?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quoting what the law allows is not communicating a threat.
    +1 The most succinct and best answer.

    No stating facts and what your recourse will be if a public servant does not do his job within his prescribed boundaries are not committing a crime.

    Fairly recently prosecutors and judges tried to use this line of reasoning for people who would hand out flyers or exercise their right of gathering to inform jurors of their right to nullify. This was thrown out by a federal court.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Really?

    So I can't arrest a cop committing a crime, in my presence, that's disturbing the peace/public?

    Interesting. Last time I checked, case law allowed such 'citizen arrests', and I don't see any exemption from being arrested, because you're a cop.

    It also says it's against the law to resist an unlawful arrest.

    So, let them beat you up and possibly kill you, THEN you can take them to court...

    So, if I don't resist, I might get beaten up or killed, but I'm surely not 'getting away'... The cop has made that clear.
    If I do resist, I still might get beaten up or killed, but I also have a chance of 'getting away', and taking out a corrupt cop in the process.

    How about... you know your skills and abilities, and choose to use or not use them. You know what you do/don't have concealed or on your person. Be prepared for an attack on your person, start carrying objects that can be used as weapons at a moments notice. Get a good pen, a nice metal pen..

    I've had WAY too many guns pointed at me in my life, ALL OF THEM by cops, where no threat existed. If I'm met with the threat of lethal force, I will respond accordingly. F(#% what clothing you happen to be wearing that day.

    Ever hear the saying 'Don't be afraid of the man who has everything, be afraid of the man who has nothing to lose' ?

    Not only is it your RIGHT to resist, it's your damned RESPONSIBILITY to resist. Further, it's EVERYONE'S responsibility to take corrupt cops off the street, in any (legal) way possible. If that means citizens arrest, well, they will probably resist, which they probably will, and most likely with lethal force, and well, at that point it becomes a self defense case, now doesn't it?

    Hell, I can legally take his gun from him too, if I wanted. There's a law making it unlawful to disarm a peace officer, but there's also an exemption if that officer is 'engaged in criminal conduct'.

    There are laws, then there are morals. This country and its legal system are so corrupt, that even clearly unconstitutional laws are being upheld.

    "Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting
    officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306



    And if you CA a police officer or kill a police officer in self defense you better be able to call Jesus himself as a character witness because you will be arrested and charged and tried. A jury is not going to say "well that cop had no right to inspect techno-weenie's gun to see if it was loaded so TW was ok to beat that officer on the head and cuff him" you'll be found guilty and go to prison.

    It's ok to discuss your theoretical theory, but please add the disclaimer, you will go to prison if you try it.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    And if you CA a police officer or kill a police officer in self defense you better be able to call Jesus himself as a character witness because you will be arrested and charged and tried. A jury is not going to say "well that cop had no right to inspect techno-weenie's gun to see if it was loaded so TW was ok to beat that officer on the head and cuff him" you'll be found guilty and go to prison.

    It's ok to discuss your theoretical theory, but please add the disclaimer, you will go to prison if you try it.
    You have much to learn grasshopper,,,, listen to techno,, you could learn much!

    Also, study,,, Bad Elk V. Colorado....
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    You have much to learn grasshopper,,,, listen to techno,, you could learn much!

    Also, study,,, Bad Elk V. Colorado....
    Bad Elk was ruled on over a century ago and didn't deal with an unlawful arrest, it dealt with unlawful force, it helped too that the defendant in that case was a police officer as well...

    but this is not a discussion about theoretical legality, it's about REALITY Davidmacbeth asserted that there could be no criminal charge for citizen's arrest of a police officer. he's wrong.

    furthermore, you will be charged if you attempt it, and probably convicted.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Too bad we cant just pull cops over and ticket them. Like when one is speeding or riding the carpool lane alone. What would really be cool is if we could ticket other citizens, like the ones who are driving around with their cell phones stuck to their head.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Bad Elk was ruled on over a century ago and didn't deal with an unlawful arrest, it dealt with unlawful force, it helped too that the defendant in that case was a police officer as well...

    but this is not a discussion about theoretical legality, it's about REALITY Davidmacbeth asserted that there could be no criminal charge for citizen's arrest of a police officer. he's wrong.

    furthermore, you will be charged if you attempt it, and probably convicted.
    Hmmm.

    Did you watch the video I posted?

    What happens when you have oppressive governments that are 'above the law'?

    What happens when lawsuits don't work, and 'officer safety' becomes the buzzword of the day that makes everything 'legal'.

    Again, when defense against tyranny becomes unlawful, it's time to become a criminal.

    By openly acknowledging that attempting to lawfully arrest a peace officer committing a crime will get you arrested, jailed, and/or killed, you've proven my point for me.



    The Jews wanted to 'work within the law' when they were forced to wear stars on their clothing
    The Jews wanted to 'work within the law' when they were forced to sell property and close businesses
    The Jews wanted to 'work within the law' when they were sent to ghettos
    The Jews wanted to 'work within the law' when they were herded into cattle cars to be relocated
    Russian political dissidents wanted to 'work within the law' when they were arrested for speaking out.
    etc etc etc

    At what point do you say '#%&# it, I'm going to do what's RIGHT, I don't care what's LEGAL' ?

    That's a personal decision for YOU to make, in YOUR situation.

    We now have warrantless wiretapping, of ALL of our communications, including this post and everything on this forum. Phone calls, text messages, emails etc.
    We have our very CONSTITUTION being scrapped, because the 2nd amendment doesn't apply, clearly, only to muskets.
    We have our 4th amendment being tossed in the trash, see above.

    We now have the FIRST amendment under attack, as lawmakers are trying to pass a law defining what a 'journalist' is, so if you're a blogger or something, you're not a 'legitimate journalist', and have NO RIGHT to post 'news', so they can take down your blog because you 'have no right to post it'.......

    You wanna wait until they start knocking on doors, or until some other 'terrorist attack' like Boston goes down and they decide that a city should stay locked down 'for everyones safety'.........that's on you.

    5 years ago I would've been called a nutjob, or a loonie.. Now look at the news, look at our country, and tell me I'm wrong. Look at our gov't saying 'meh, oh well, it's national security, we're doing it, f%*# you, you can't stop us'
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 09-15-2013 at 04:47 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Hmmm.

    Did you watch the video I posted?

    What happens when you have oppressive governments that are 'above the law'?

    What happens when lawsuits don't work, and 'officer safety' becomes the buzzword of the day that makes everything 'legal'.

    Again, when defense against tyranny becomes unlawful, it's time to become a criminal.

    By openly acknowledging that attempting to lawfully arrest a peace officer committing a crime will get you arrested, jailed, and/or killed, you've proven my point for me.

    --snipped--

    At what point do you say '#%&# it, I'm going to do what's RIGHT, I don't care what's LEGAL' ?
    While I understand and relate to the passion surrounding our rights, freedoms and the attacks on them, that is only marginally within the purview of OCDO - the site is dedicated to promoting and defending OC. It is not intended to provide a political platform for all else.

    More pointedly, we do not promote, espouse, or suggest that one act illegally - in violation of law. The adherence to that principal is important enough that a specific rule defines the intent beyond question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post

    More pointedly, we do not promote, espouse, or suggest that one act illegally - in violation of law. The adherence to that principal is important enough that a specific rule defines the intent beyond question.
    I don't know of ANY website that does promote, espouse, or suggest that one act illegally.

    Websites may not police their boards for such activities but they do not openly promote illegal activity.

    Boilerplate notice I guess ... of course some would post to do dastardly deeds I guess...like voting democratic !

  20. #20
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    We now have warrantless wiretapping, of ALL of our communications, including this post and everything on this forum.
    you mean someone with a computer can access OCDO and read all the posts on the forums?

    bastards....
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 09-15-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    you mean someone with a computer can access OCDO and read all the posts on the forums?

    bastards....
    Big difference between a private citizen or corporation who has no authority over you looking at stuff and the government, who has the power to jail you (or worse) and is doing it on your dime.
    Last edited by Alpine; 09-15-2013 at 07:21 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    If you record, do NOT do this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Big difference between a private citizen or corporation who has no authority over you looking at stuff and the government, who has the power to jail you (or worse) and is doing it on your dime.
    Not to mention that Techno was also talking about the PMs that not just anyone with a computer can access.
    Last edited by tombrewster421; 09-15-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Not to mention that Techno was also talking about the PMs that not just anyone with a computer can access.
    Or can't I????? Dr. Evil with pinky finger at corner of mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    What happens when you have oppressive governments that are 'above the law'?

    Again, when defense against tyranny becomes unlawful, it's time to become a criminal.
    Tyranny? Oppression?

    You have the freedom to write these things. You can legally own firearms. I'd be happy to take you places that are truly tyrannical, that have "oppressive" governments, where you would have ZERO rights.

    I have to laugh when I read these words, and (indirect) comparisons to Nazi Germany or Stalin's Gulag-by-the-Tundra. I've been places where that sort of thing is more on the order of the day than an aberration.

    Techno, you have NO clue what it would be like to be truly oppressed. Places where people get dragged out of their cars at military checkpoints and executed for being the wrong religion...For not belonging to the correct tribe...For not having enough "baksheesh" to pay their way through.

    Ever seen an innocent 8-year-old boy executed for getting in the way of a squad of "soldiers"* who were hell-bent on rape? I have.

    Being asked (even unlawfully) for ID does not compare in any way to true oppression.

    * "soldiers" in quotation marks as there is no way I'd consider a rag-tag militia formed for the sole purpose of extortion and brutality to be true soldiers, no matter what they called themselves.

    /rant

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    If you record, do NOT do this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    Tyranny? Oppression?

    You have the freedom to write these things. You can legally own firearms. I'd be happy to take you places that are truly tyrannical, that have "oppressive" governments, where you would have ZERO rights.

    I have to laugh when I read these words, and (indirect) comparisons to Nazi Germany or Stalin's Gulag-by-the-Tundra. I've been places where that sort of thing is more on the order of the day than an aberration.

    Techno, you have NO clue what it would be like to be truly oppressed. Places where people get dragged out of their cars at military checkpoints and executed for being the wrong religion...For not belonging to the correct tribe...For not having enough "baksheesh" to pay their way through.

    Ever seen an innocent 8-year-old boy executed for getting in the way of a squad of "soldiers"* who were hell-bent on rape? I have.

    Being asked (even unlawfully) for ID does not compare in any way to true oppression.

    * "soldiers" in quotation marks as there is no way I'd consider a rag-tag militia formed for the sole purpose of extortion and brutality to be true soldiers, no matter what they called themselves.

    /rant
    OK, you win--- I will admit that it has been, is, or will be WORSE in other locations/countries. Does that mean that we don't have a RIGHT or even OBLIGATION to stand up for the RIGHTS acknowledged and supposedly protected by our laws and Constitution? Or must we continue to accept these violations UNTIL at some point they DO ESCALATE to the levels you rant about. Where is the magic point at which we (as in all of us) are justified in resisting oppression/tyranny? And who will determine where that point is?--- The tyrannical oppressors?

    A RIGHT UNEXERCISED IS A RIGHT LOST!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 09-16-2013 at 01:08 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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