Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 65

Thread: This is why I have no respect for the courts anymore.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690

    This is why I have no respect for the courts anymore.

    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Well, not knowing any of the details leading to this letter, I'm not yet against them on this.

    Until a particular court or official has been shown to be otherwise, they WORK for us and I don't appreciate someone who owes a legitimate debt to them going out of their way to be trying to waste their time on purpose.

    If you legitimately only have $235 (or whatever it was) only available to you in unrolled pennies, that's one thing. But I suspect that is not the case here.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    From 2008? wonder if he paid his ticket result.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Well, not knowing any of the details leading to this letter, I'm not yet against them on this.

    Until a particular court or official has been shown to be otherwise, they WORK for us and I don't appreciate someone who owes a legitimate debt to them going out of their way to be trying to waste their time on purpose.

    If you legitimately only have $235 (or whatever it was) only available to you in unrolled pennies, that's one thing. But I suspect that is not the case here.
    The Youtube video was linked to. It was not pennies. EVEN IF IT WAS pennies then they have to accept them. You don't know the history of the ticket/fine/etc.

    The judge has stated that she does not know what Federal Reserve Notes are and that banks get to determine what money is.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    The Youtube video was linked to. It was not pennies. EVEN IF IT WAS pennies then they have to accept them. You don't know the history of the ticket/fine/etc.

    The judge has stated that she does not know what Federal Reserve Notes are and that banks get to determine what money is.
    I don't know the history because it wasn't on the letter or summarized, hence my admission that I did not know the history. You posted this for opinions (I assume) so that was mine. I need more reason to click a video when the usual purpose of doing so is to overdramatize and overnarrate without just giving me the facts to consider for myself.

    Most people don't know what FRNs are. The judge didn't say they won't take them, just that they'd take them to the bank. I assume the bank would take them, so even without knowing what they are, she'll accept them. Most stores accept them everyday, but if you asked them, they'd probably say they don't because they won't know what you are talking about. So, that part just seems like making fun of people who have been bred to be ignorant of our money system through no real fault of their own.

    Instead of focusing on my wrong example of pennies, how about the actual point I made? Is someone wanting to go out of their way and purposely trying to waste the time of the taxpayer's court? I have a problem with that. In fact, I'd call it contempt of court. Some courts deserve contempt. But you have to sell me on that before you sell me on someone's resolution of it.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  6. #6
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I don't know the history because it wasn't on the letter or summarized, hence my admission that I did not know the history. You posted this for opinions (I assume) so that was mine. I need more reason to click a video when the usual purpose of doing so is to overdramatize and overnarrate without just giving me the facts to consider for myself.

    Most people don't know what FRNs are. The judge didn't say they won't take them, just that they'd take them to the bank. I assume the bank would take them, so even without knowing what they are, she'll accept them. Most stores accept them everyday, but if you asked them, they'd probably say they don't because they won't know what you are talking about. So, that part just seems like making fun of people who have been bred to be ignorant of our money system through no real fault of their own.

    Instead of focusing on my wrong example of pennies, how about the actual point I made? Is someone wanting to go out of their way and purposely trying to waste the time of the taxpayer's court? I have a problem with that. In fact, I'd call it contempt of court. Some courts deserve contempt. But you have to sell me on that before you sell me on someone's resolution of it.
    I had a speeding ticket, I went to pay the fine on the last day legally. I got to the court and the court said it was closed on a non-holiday (Wednesday). I had check the website for the court to get the hours and address. I then sent a letter certified mail stating that I was at this court on this day and time with full payment. The court made the choice to be closed and since it was not a holiday I would consider the fine paid in full unless I heard back from the court via certified mail within 30 days.

    That was in November ? 2007 I did not hear back from them until April or later 2008 stating that it had doubled and then some for being late. I never got any letter from them before then much less via certified mail.

    I called and asked if they would accept FRNs they would not say yes. I then went to pay the fine using one 'dollar' coins. That is where the Youtube video comes in. That is the courts second refusal of payment.

    BTW it's your RIGHT to protest BS fines and such by making such payments in any form of legal US currency.

    The traffic courts, IMO, are a blight on our society.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 09-14-2013 at 09:28 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    ...BTW it's your RIGHT to protest BS fines and such by making such payments in any form of legal US currency.

    The traffic courts, IMO, are a blight on our society.
    Thank you for the summary. That was done very well. And here I was thinking you'd just found something to discuss, not thinking it actually involved you personally, too. Because I could swear this was discussed last year.

    I agree that the traffic laws and the courts are often wrong, and often (probably purposely) set up to convenience themselves at our expense (like odd hours of service).

    And while I absolutely agree you have the right to the protest, I guess I just won't be on that picket line with you. I get my share of speeding tickets. I pay them.

    But I do feel your pain, even if I picked a different battle to fight.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  8. #8
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Thank you for the summary. That was done very well. And here I was thinking you'd just found something to discuss, not thinking it actually involved you personally, too. Because I could swear this was discussed last year.

    I agree that the traffic laws and the courts are often wrong, and often (probably purposely) set up to convenience themselves at our expense (like odd hours of service).

    And while I absolutely agree you have the right to the protest, I guess I just won't be on that picket line with you. I get my share of speeding tickets. I pay them.

    But I do feel your pain, even if I picked a different battle to fight.

    Not everyone can fight (in) every battle or on the same fronts. The end goal is liberty.

    I had been looking for that letter, I could not remember where I had stored it until today.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I ended up having to pay, due to a corrupt judge, in loose 1 dollar FRNs and misc coins that were all short of full rolls.


    From his youtube comments ....

    Paying with $1 coins.

  10. #10
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Is there actually any RCW or provision of the Uniform Commercial Code requiring a court to take any cash or coin payment?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I had a speeding ticket, I went to pay the fine on the last day legally. I got to the court and the court said it was closed on a non-holiday (Wednesday). I had check the website for the court to get the hours and address. I then sent a letter certified mail stating that I was at this court on this day and time with full payment. The court made the choice to be closed and since it was not a holiday I would consider the fine paid in full unless I heard back from the court via certified mail within 30 days.

    That was in November ? 2007 I did not hear back from them until April or later 2008 stating that it had doubled and then some for being late. I never got any letter from them before then much less via certified mail.

    I called and asked if they would accept FRNs they would not say yes. I then went to pay the fine using one 'dollar' coins. That is where the Youtube video comes in. That is the courts second refusal of payment.

    BTW it's your RIGHT to protest BS fines and such by making such payments in any form of legal US currency.

    The traffic courts, IMO, are a blight on our society.
    I agree with your point about traffic court. That being said, why are quizing the court about frns?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I agree with your point about traffic court. That being said, why are quizing the court about frns?
    Because, I wanted it on record that I had tendered payment. The FRN thing, I wanted on audio because no-one would believe me otherwise.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  13. #13
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Is there actually any RCW or provision of the Uniform Commercial Code requiring a court to take any cash or coin payment?
    5103. Legal tender

    United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.


    That took 5 seconds or so using a search engine and then another 30 to pull it up on the government info site.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  14. #14
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    5103. Legal tender

    United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.


    That took 5 seconds or so using a search engine and then another 30 to pull it up on the government info site.
    but what is WASHINGTON LAW regarding the duty of courts to accept US Currency? just because it is tender does not require anyone to accept it. if you incurr a debt to me, and I say I will only accept payment in $10 dollar bills I have the right not to accept 20s.

    which law or policy of Washington courts deals with what tender they may except.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Because, I wanted it on record that I had tendered payment. The FRN thing, I wanted on audio because no-one would believe me otherwise.
    OK ... duly noted.

    FYI .. tax collectors will not take coins either to pay your taxes .... not like 3-5K ... I know ...

  16. #16
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    OK ... duly noted.

    FYI .. tax collectors will not take coins either to pay your taxes .... not like 3-5K ... I know ...
    just get a T-shirt write your name, bank, routing number, signature, and "pay to the order of Internal Revnue Service on it... (the shirt off your back) on it.... according to the Uniform Commercial Code this would constitute a "draft" a form of negotiable instrument valid for payment.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  17. #17
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    but what is WASHINGTON LAW regarding the duty of courts to accept US Currency? just because it is tender does not require anyone to accept it. if you incurr a debt to me, and I say I will only accept payment in $10 dollar bills I have the right not to accept 20s.

    which law or policy of Washington courts deals with what tender they may except.
    A PRIVATE contract may be exchanged in any medium all parties agree to.

    The calling in of a non-contractual debt cannot have such restrictions.

    Otherwise a court could demand payment in 1000 dollar FRNs if you have a fine of more than 1000 FRNs.

    Yes there are such notes, no they are not common, yes they are still legal tender.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  18. #18
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    A PRIVATE contract may be exchanged in any medium all parties agree to.

    The calling in of a non-contractual debt cannot have such restrictions.

    Otherwise a court could demand payment in 1000 dollar FRNs if you have a fine of more than 1000 FRNs.

    Yes there are such notes, no they are not common, yes they are still legal tender.
    Again, cite.

    1000 dollar FRNs (or all FRNs over 100 dollars for that matter) were never circulated to the general public. They were used between the government and large banks or corporations. So it would not be reasonable to require payment of non circulating currency. On the other hand requiring you not take up their manpower by paying in a jar of coins is.....
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 09-15-2013 at 05:37 PM.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  19. #19
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Again, cite.
    I cited the federal law.

    If you want to know more look up the UCC.

    I can't help your statist views. You'll always believe that the state is right, I can't help that.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/3-603

    MOOORRRREEE


    Legal Tender Status

    I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

    The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

    This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy
    .
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 09-15-2013 at 05:39 PM. Reason: MOOORREEE
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  20. #20
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I cited the federal law.

    If you want to know more look up the UCC.

    I can't help your statist views. You'll always believe that the state is right, I can't help that.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/3-603
    Your federal law does not require a state to accept tender only that currency is tender. Read the language of the law, it places no responsibility on the part of a state court to accept. Please cite the law requiring courts of the State of Washington to accept a jar of coins
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  21. #21
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Greater Eastside Washington
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Your federal law does not require a state to accept tender only that currency is tender. Read the language of the law, it places no responsibility on the part of a state court to accept. Please cite the law requiring courts of the State of Washington to accept a jar of coins
    Tender can always be refused however the amount tendered has to be deducted from the debt.

    You cite the law showing that coins are not legal tender.

    You need to look up what legal tender is. That is your homework.

    EDIT here is the information.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tender

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...m/legal+tender

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/legal+tender

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/legal-tender/
    Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt. The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, defines legal tender as "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

    How can you even have this argument when you don't even know the meaning of the words that you're using?
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 09-15-2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Did EMN's homework
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    but what is WASHINGTON LAW regarding the duty of courts to accept US Currency? just because it is tender does not require anyone to accept it. if you incurr a debt to me, and I say I will only accept payment in $10 dollar bills I have the right not to accept 20s.

    which law or policy of Washington courts deals with what tender they may except.
    I did that same research to aid me in a dispute with TriCare. My conclusion is that law applies to the federal government only. However, TriCare would still NOT take cash. They force you either to give them a credit card number that they will repeatedly automatically charge or a bank account number that they will repeatedly automatically draft. The only way I've found around it is to buy a Visa gift card ($3) and give them the new number each time. They won't even take a check. I still send them a check every time and make them reject it. I redeposit the check and then, at the very last minute, call them with the card.

    No respect for the People at all.

  23. #23
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I did that same research to aid me in a dispute with TriCare. My conclusion is that law applies to the federal government only. However, TriCare would still NOT take cash. They force you either to give them a credit card number that they will repeatedly automatically charge or a bank account number that they will repeatedly automatically draft. The only way I've found around it is to buy a Visa gift card ($3) and give them the new number each time. They won't even take a check. I still send them a check every time and make them reject it. I redeposit the check and then, at the very last minute, call them with the card.

    No respect for the People at all.
    that's privatization for you... isn't tricare a private contractor hired to manage the military benefit system?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    This is why I have no respect for the courts anymore.

    TriCare is managed by several contractors, depending on where you live. The irony of this is that my wife, although I am assured she is covered, does not appear on my policy paperwork, because she lives on one region handled by one contractor, and I live in another region handled by another contractor.

    I have tried to work these issues with the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs. What a nimrod! Then again, he is an Obama guy.

    However, as an agent of the government, collecting the money for the government, the contractors are bound by the same restrictions. The government cannot get around its limitations by getting someone to perform its tasks for them!

    Otherwise, were the government to collect the fees itself, instead of using a contractor, could the clerk collecting the money on behalf of the government say, "Oh, I am not the government. I am just an employee. I don't have to take cash!"?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  25. #25
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790

    Been this route before...at least with taxes...

    You need to find where UCC 3-603 has been codified in your states statutes...

    basically,

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/3-603

    3-603. TENDER OF PAYMENT.


    (a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract.


    (b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.


    (c) If tender of payment of an amount due on an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the obligation of the obligor to pay interest after the due date on the amount tendered is discharged. If presentment is required with respect to an instrument and the obligor is able and ready to pay on the due date at every place of payment stated in the instrument, the obligor is deemed to have made tender of payment on the due date to the person entitled to enforce the instrument.
    For Washington, I would start looking here:

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=62A.3-603


    Not really too knowledgeable about WA laws, but I suspect that since this involves a licensed activity (thereby commerce) that the UCC / law of agency would hold some water. I suppose I would have also followed up with a letter to the judge stating that their collections agents find counting a couple hundred $1 coins to be more onerous than the same number of $1 bills, and could the judge point to the specific RCW that allows the refusal of legal tender because it would take some time to count versus the same amount of time to count for another form of legal tender.

    Almost sounds like a civil rights lawsuit...
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •