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Thread: Gun grab: what crime or crimes are committed?

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    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    Gun grab: what crime or crimes are committed?

    What crime is committed when someone grabs a handgun and tugs on it? What crime is committed if they remove the gun from the holster?

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    Simple assault. Depending on the jurisdiction, maybe battery. The elements of battery are an intentional act done for the purpose of causing a harmful or offensive contact.

    It is NOT robbery/theft that has the element of permanence and/or conversion.

    Never believe a cop, particularly an admitted cop. They lie like they breathe, lie not err, with mens rea and intent to deprive.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-16-2013 at 09:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Simple assault. Depending on the jurisdiction, maybe battery. The elements of battery are an intentional act done for the purpose of causing a harmful or offensive contact.
    um,no. You are ignoring intent, which is the ESSENCE of The Law (tm).

    If they are trying to remove your gun from your person and are using force against your resistance, it's attempted robbery.

    Assault (or A&B depending on jurisdiction) would be a lesser included misdemeanor. The charge would be attempt robbery (to avoid the misdemeanor joinder rule upon arrest)

    Generally speaking, attempting to remove property from a person via force is attempted robbery under most penal codes. Generally speaking, force must be used. Iow, if a person is carrying a handbag and a guy runs up from behind and takes the bag without having to overcome force and the person doesn't even know it's happening until it's removed from him, under some penal codes, that is "theft from person" or simple theft/larceny.

    If the person knows it's happening and resists or the person uses force or threats to overcome resistance, it's robbery (or in the case presented here - attempted robbery)

    So, it depends if the person tugging on it is overcoming your resistance (attempted robbery) or not. Also,. any assault committed in the commission of a theft will up it to robbery. We charge these all the time when shoplifters assault loss prevention officers - robbery.

    If the person tries to disarm me, I know that over 80% of the time a person disarms a LEO, they use the gun against the LEO. It's a deadly force situation. We had a situation with one of our officers where an armed robber got her gun out of her holster and they were fighting over it. Store owner came up and shot the robber in the head. Good shoot.

    My state has a specific statute for disarming that does not require the overcoming of force element in a robbery, and is a C felony. If they overcome force, or get the gun via threats, etc. then it is robbery.

    Here's a good lesson on robbery

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/robbery
    Last edited by PALO; 09-16-2013 at 09:55 PM.

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    IANAL

    As a minimum, if someone comes up behind you and attempts a gun grab (tug/pull but no removal), assault & battery and attempted theft of a firearm.
    If removed from the holster, felony aggravated assault and battery with a weapon and felony theft of a firearm.

    As soon as it's out of the holster he/she is now a deadly threat for use of force during the struggle for the firearm.
    If you recover it and they back off then the threat stops, but if try to re-grab it, still a threat.

    If the firearm goes off during the struggle, hit or miss, maybe attempted murder for the grabber.
    It's really going to come down to how your state law is written AND what can be proved via evidence/witnesses... lots of variables.

    Other opinions?
    Last edited by Lord Sega; 09-16-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    IANAL

    As a minimum, if someone comes up behind you and attempts a gun grab (tug/pull but no removal), assault & battery and attempted theft of a firearm.
    If removed from the holster, felony aggravated assault and battery with a weapon and felony theft of a firearm.

    As soon as it's out of the holster he/she is now a deadly threat for use of force during the struggle for the firearm.
    If you recover it and they back off then the threat stops, but if try to re-grab it, still a threat.

    If the firearm goes off during the struggle, hit or miss, maybe attempted murder for the grabber.
    It's really going to come down to how your state law is written AND what can be proved via evidence/witnesses... lots of variables.

    Other opinions?

    If the person is using force to overcome resistance, or using intimidation or threats, it's ROBBERY.

    That's true in every state penal code I have read (about 25). As well as the model penal code.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/robbery

    It's only a larceny (or theft from person depending on penal code) if the person has to overcome no force to get the gun iow they get the gun before the person even recognizes it has happened. That's pretty rare. I've charged a # of Robbery cases involving similar circ's as well as theft from person in 2 cases where there was no overcome resistance because they ran up and pulled the purse off the shoulder before the person knew what happened.

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    Snipped... If the person is using force to overcome resistance, or using intimidation or threats, it's ROBBERY.
    Ok, I can go with that, like I said I'm not a lawyer or a LEO. So... without force/resistance=theft, with=robbery.

    Note: I did not see your post until I had already posted.
    Last edited by Lord Sega; 09-16-2013 at 10:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    Ok, I can go with that, like I said I'm now a lawyer or a LEO. No force/resistance=theft, with then=robbery.

    Note: I did not see your post until I had already posted.
    No problem.

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    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    I ain't a lawyer either. Nor do I wanna be one. And this is entirely my opinion.

    But, if someone is trying to take your gun away and they ain't LEO, they are posing as an immediate threat to your life and safety as well as the lives and safety of those around you, therefore I'd beat on them like a hard rock drummer gone spastic and don't stop until someone drags you off.

    What the laws say is one thing, but those law books go out the window when you're in that kind of situation. Do you want to chance it that this ******* just wants to look at it? Common sense prevails- if the ******* is trying to take it from you without your consent they clearly mean to do harm to you and others. What else would the cops expect? for you to politely "ask" the SOB to stop? Ask him after you disarm and disable the threat.
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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    I ain't a lawyer either. Nor do I wanna be one. And this is entirely my opinion.

    But, if someone is trying to take your gun away and they ain't LEO, they are posing as an immediate threat to your life and safety as well as the lives and safety of those around you, therefore I'd beat on them like a hard rock drummer gone spastic and don't stop until someone drags you off.

    What the laws say is one thing, but those law books go out the window when you're in that kind of situation. Do you want to chance it that this ******* just wants to look at it? Common sense prevails- if the ******* is trying to take it from you without your consent they clearly mean to do harm to you and others. What else would the cops expect? for you to politely "ask" the SOB to stop? Ask him after you disarm and disable the threat.

    I think this becomes a self defense situation, not just an attempt to stop a theft. It all goes to your reasonable fear for your safety.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    Thanks all.

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    Many courts have seen an attempt to "snatch" a police officers sidearm as attempted murder since a majority of gun snatches result in the officer being shot.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Possible charges under Virginia law:

    Assault

    Assault & battery

    Attempted murder

    Larceny

    Grand larceny

    Use of a firearm in a felony

    More immediately important is that I will conclude you intend me grevious bodily harm and will react accordingly to stop you.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    What crime is committed when someone grabs a handgun and tugs on it? What crime is committed if they remove the gun from the holster?
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Suicide?
    +1.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    I ain't a lawyer either. Nor do I wanna be one. And this is entirely my opinion.

    But, if someone is trying to take your gun away and they ain't LEO, they are posing as an immediate threat to your life and safety as well as the lives and safety of those around you, therefore I'd beat on them like a hard rock drummer gone spastic and don't stop until someone drags you off.
    Does that matter? A threat to ones life is a threat to ones life no matter who is doing it. If an LEO you know he will either steal that firearm or kill you trying. You're left with very few options as you're being confronted by an armed criminal who trying to rob you at gunpoint. Or at least if you resist you'll certainly be at gunpoint
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Does that matter? A threat to ones life is a threat to ones life no matter who is doing it. If an LEO you know he will either steal that firearm or kill you trying. You're left with very few options as you're being confronted by an armed criminal who trying to rob you at gunpoint. Or at least if you resist you'll certainly be at gunpoint
    Lol what?
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    Wowwie!!!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
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    For those that missed it, please read this link:
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