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Thread: One in the chamber?

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    One in the chamber?

    Hello OC, quick question... What are the laws regarding having your handgun loaded with one in the chamber? I've read something talking about condition 1 condition 2 but do not know what this means and if you have the time I would appreciate an explanation on what this means and if it is ok for me to open carry with a round in the chamber of my baby

    And while your here and reading this post your thoughts on carrying your gun loaded and ready to go is it the only way to go? Do you feel its dangerous? Opinions are not illegal to have yet but they are working on it so express them freely but with humility and always respect others for what they think no matter how much you disagree because like it or not everyone can think what ever they want which is why I still love America and why I carry a gun, so that the first person to try and take away my free thinking can catch 13 hot ones

    Thanks in advance

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    Personally, I think the quicker you can neutralize a threat, the better. In an emergency situation every second counts. The time it takes to chamber a round could be the deference between walking away or being carried away.

    It all depends on whether or not you want to take that chance.
    Last edited by Tackett; 09-18-2013 at 08:46 AM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    So long as the law in your state or jurisdiction allows one to legally carry a loaded firearm and does not prohibit having a cartridge in the chamber, IMHO one should always carry in Condition 1 -- loaded and ready to fire without having to rack the slide. As the previous poster indicated, the time it takes to "make ready" the firearm -- especially in adrenalin-fueled dangerous situations -- could mean the difference between living or dieing.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: One in the chamber?

    Hi - Dingy.

    You should get yourself a copy of the Arizona Gun Owners Guide by Mr. Alan Korwin and read it cover to cover. That will get you a clear understanding of AZ gun laws. Also see the link at the top of the AZ forum for some useful links to laws until you can get the book.

    To carry a pistol is a very real commitment to self defense. In my honest opinion those who carry without a round in the chamber are fence sitters. Meaning it is a do or don't do situation, not a "maybe" do one. It may make sense for some quirky pistols??? To borrow a line from the karate kid. "Karate do yes, or karate do no, Danielson! No maybe! Like man who walks in middle of road, sooner or later get squished like a grape!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lQSxNdr3c
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Time necessary to rack the slide to load is the least of the reasons to carry with one in the chamber.

    Will you always have two uninjured and unoccupied hands available for doing so? Loading is also a common time to have a malfunction, and that's when you are not stressed by a critical situation.

    Modern sidearms are designed to be carried safely while fully loaded. Use an appropriate holster.

    What if a bad guy is in the area and you want to make ready without making any noise?

    EDIT: I've been told there is a holster in this video that can rack the slide for you: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6e_1357090174
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-18-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Some states define a loaded firearm with "one in the chamber." In Arizona, there is no such legal distinction. Whether a firearm is loaded or not, it is considered a "deadly weapon" in Arizona law.

    Modern handguns are designed to be carried with a loaded chamber. They all have drop safeties and most, if not all, modern handguns have external safeties (Yes! Glocks have an external safety - it's on the front of the trigger).

    Tactically, as others have pointed out, you want to carry a loaded firearm with one in the chamber. In a self-defense situation, you will have less than a second to react and get your pistol on target. Why handicap yourself with more time to get your gun into operating condition?

    My experience has been that those who advocate carrying with an empty chamber are unfamiliar and/or unskilled in handling firearms.

    Regarding "Condition of Pistol Readiness." It's a firearm term that doesn't see much use today, but here they are:

    Condition ONE = The way you want to carry a 1911 or similar single-action semi-auto. Loaded with a magazine and one in the chamber with the safety engaged (i.e., cocked and locked).

    Condition TWO = Normal carry for semi-auto double-action pistols. Loaded with a magazine but hammer (if you have one) down on loaded chamber. Safety engaged. NEVER carry a 1911 in Condition TWO.

    Condition THREE = Loaded magazine but an empty chamber. The slide must be cycled to chamber a cartridge. Safety engaged.

    Condition FOUR (also known as Embassy Carry) = Hammer down on an empty chamber and there is NO magazine in the gun. Safety engaged. Basically, you are carrying a useless tool.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 09-18-2013 at 01:53 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Carry by what makes you comfortable, tell anyone else who tries to intimidate you to "Bugger Off".
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dingywingy View Post
    Do you feel its dangerous?
    It's dangerous only for those who choose (there is no such thing as an "accident" when it comes to firearms) to ignore basic safety rules.

    Mechanically, modern pistols can only go bang when the trigger is pulled. Your firearm "safety" starts in the brain and ends at the tip of your finger. Keep it off the trigger and the gun will not fire, regardless of whatever internal or external safeties are or are not imbedded in the pistol. Here are the rules:

    1. All guns are always loaded - in other words there is no distinction between a loaded gun or unloaded gun when it comes to handling a firearm.

    2. Never let the muzzle cover (or point at) anything you are not willing to destroy (whether the gun is loaded or not). Than includes your own body parts. I've seen way too many people move their support hand in front of the muzzle. Earlier this year, at a local range, a woman shot herself in the hand as she was manipulating her pistol.

    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. I witnessed a man shoot himself in the leg holstering his 1911 with the safety off and his finger on the trigger as he was pushing the pistol into the hoslter.

    4. Be sure of your target and what is in line (in front and behind) with it.
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 09-18-2013 at 01:30 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: One in the chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Carry by what makes you comfortable, tell anyone else who tries to intimidate you to "Bugger Off".
    True - however no matter how you carry, you need to train for real world events, and do so like your life depends on it! Why? It does!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Carry by what makes you comfortable, tell anyone else who tries to intimidate you to "Bugger Off".
    +1

    I used to be uncomfortable with carrying one in chamber but after time (and research) I became more familiar and comfortable in my sidearm and its safeties, I now always carry condition 1

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dingywingy View Post
    can catch 13 hot ones
    You sound pretty flippant to shoot to kill 13 times. If you find yourself in a situation that requires that action, it would be extremely serious and certainly altering both you and the perps lives.
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    Regular Member March Hare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dingywingy View Post
    Hello OC, quick question... What are the laws regarding having your handgun loaded with one in the chamber? I've read something talking about condition 1 condition 2 but do not know what this means and if you have the time I would appreciate an explanation on what this means and if it is ok for me to open carry with a round in the chamber of my baby

    And while your here and reading this post your thoughts on carrying your gun loaded and ready to go is it the only way to go? Do you feel its dangerous? Opinions are not illegal to have yet but they are working on it so express them freely but with humility and always respect others for what they think no matter how much you disagree because like it or not everyone can think what ever they want which is why I still love America and why I carry a gun, so that the first person to try and take away my free thinking can catch 13 hot ones

    Thanks in advance
    I always carry with one in the chamber and a full magazine.
    I don't consider it dangerous because I'm very familiar with the operation of my sidearm and have practiced with it extensively.
    I carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber because this model can fire the first round double action, just my preference, of course.

    Like the above posters have said; carry how you feel comfortable, follow the safety rules and remember; when you pull the trigger, at least two lives are going to change forever.

    Be safe and carry on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    You sound pretty flippant to shoot to kill 13 times. If you find yourself in a situation that requires that action, it would be extremely serious and certainly altering both you and the perps lives.
    Hopefully more to the perp, if he can shoot at least 1/13 as well as he says

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    How I Carry

    As my instructor taught me.

    1. Full Magazine
    2. One in the chamber
    3. Hammer down
    4. Safety OFF while in the holster (the gun, a Beretta 9000s Type F, is essentally in a double-action revolver-like mode).

    Safety is put on while pulled from holster, and moved to storage - nightstand, car storage box, etc.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Simply carry in the manner you are most comfortable with, and best suited for your particular sidearm.

    Pistols with double action capability= good for Condition 1 or Condition 2 (but I would never take it down beyond that)

    Single action semi-autos with a firing pin block (or the like) = Best carried Condition 1

    Single action revolvers without block (or the like) = carry like Lee Van Cleef or Clint Eastwood.

    Your choice.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 10-28-2013 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Spelling
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHF View Post
    As my instructor taught me.

    1. Full Magazine
    2. One in the chamber
    3. Hammer down
    4. Safety OFF while in the holster (the gun, a Beretta 9000s Type F, is essentally in a double-action revolver-like mode).

    Safety is put on while pulled from holster, and moved to storage - nightstand, car storage box, etc.
    What he taught you is contrary to any training I have encountered or heard of before. Where did you get your training?

    All safeties should be engaged and stay engaged until you point your pistol at your target.

    Fred
    PS - I'm also an NRA Pistol Instructor

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    What he taught you is contrary to any training I have encountered or heard of before. Where did you get your training?

    All safeties should be engaged and stay engaged until you point your pistol at your target.

    Fred
    PS - I'm also an NRA Pistol Instructor
    Then why do some DA guns differ ONLY in whether it has a safety/decocker or just a spring-loaded decocker? (Ruger P95 and P95DC, for example)

    It is quite common for many firearms to have safeties that are superfluous and not intended to be always used.

    It is quite normal to carry a DA with the safety off. Otherwise, no one would make them without safeties.

    Carrying a DA with the safety off is how I recommend to carry them.

    PS - I'm also an NRA Pistol Instructor
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-29-2013 at 11:36 AM.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Carrying a DA with the safety off is how I recommend to carry them. I'm also an NRA Pistol Instructor
    Looks like we'll have to disagree on this issue.

    Just like there should be no differentiation between a loaded or unloaded gun, if a pistol has a safety, it should always be engaged until your sights are on the target. Otherwise we get into the mindset of making exceptions for safe gun handling.

    It's like saying I'm not going to wear the seatbelt in my car because I'm only pulling out of my driveway.

    If you buy a gun with an external safety, it should be used as intended. My two cents.

    Fred

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Looks like we'll have to disagree on this issue.

    Just like there should be no differentiation between a loaded or unloaded gun, if a pistol has a safety, it should always be engaged until your sights are on the target. Otherwise we get into the mindset of making exceptions for safe gun handling.

    It's like saying I'm not going to wear the seatbelt in my car because I'm only pulling out of my driveway.

    If you buy a gun with an external safety, it should be used as intended....
    Most of this is a non sequitur.

    Do any of these guns' manuals say that the safety is intended to always be on while the gun is carried?

    Conversely, as mentioned, many of these otherwise exactly the same pistols are also available in a version without the safety.

    It appears you may be using the mindset of the NRA Basic Pistol instruction, in which case, I could agree with you. Pistols are not referred to as nor treated as self defense weapons in this course. But in the Personal Protection courses, things are different. Indeed, the draw stroke taught here disengages a safety during rotation, before it is pointed at a hostile target. Slide-mounted safeties, as found on many DA designs, make this less natural, also.

    EDIT: PS, when quoting me out of context, please indicate so with ellipses or other method. Not only did you only quote only my last two sentences with no indication there was previous text, but actually removed the line break and "PS" which had indicated why my last sentence was there. Yes, it matters.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-29-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    But in the Personal Protection courses, things are different. Indeed, the draw stroke disengages a safety during rotation, before it is pointed at a hostile target. Slide-mounted safeties, as found on many DA designs, make this less natural, also.
    I couldn't agree with you more. I've seen plenty of lawyer-designed guns bought by naďve gun owners that have weird and non-ergonomic external safeties.

    But for someone serious about safe gun handling and proper skill at arms, the solution is to own a pistol that allows proper access and function of the external safety and not work around a poorly designed lever with unsafe gun handling.

    The external safety on my Glock (yes, there is one) is always engaged until after rotation during presentation

    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more. I've seen plenty of lawyer-designed guns bought by naďve gun owners that have weird and non-ergonomic external safeties.

    But for someone serious about safe gun handling and proper skill at arms, the solution is to own a pistol that allows proper access and function of the external safety and not work around a poorly designed lever with unsafe gun handling.

    The external safety on my Glock (yes, there is one) is always engaged until after rotation during presentation

    Fred
    What of those handguns that MAC mentioned earlier (DA decocker only, no external safety)? Would you deem those as not safe to carry with a chambered round? If so, why?

    I only ask out of personal interest, and mean no offense.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    What of those handguns that MAC mentioned earlier (DA decocker only, no external safety)? Would you deem those as not safe to carry with a chambered round? If so, why? I only ask out of personal interest, and mean no offense.
    No offense taken.

    Whether a gun has or doesn't have an external safety isn't the issue. Revolvers don't have external safeties and no one seems to notice, probably because they are lulled into the mistaken belief that the 12-15 pound revolver trigger pull will prevent bad things from happening.

    If a pistol has no external safety and only a decocker, then that is how the gun was designed to operate. Again, no problem.

    However if a handgun has an external safety, whether it is part of the decocker or not, that is how it is designed to operate. That means that for consistency in safe gun handling, the safety should be engaged when the gun is not ready to be fired (pointed at target).

    I believe MAC702's position is that since some guns are poorly designed so that disengaging the safety becomes a challenge (I've seen a few like that) during presentation that it's not necessary to engage the safety all the times.

    My position is that if a gun has a poorly designed external safety lever and impedes proper disengagement/engagement during presentation, then it's time to trade it for a gun where all the controls are ergonomically accessible and work without difficulty.

    Fred

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    ...Whether a gun has or doesn't have an external safety isn't the issue. Revolvers don't have external safeties and no one seems to notice, probably because they are lulled into the mistaken belief that the 12-15 pound revolver trigger pull will prevent bad things from happening.

    If a pistol has no external safety and only a decocker, then that is how the gun was designed to operate. Again, no problem.

    However if a handgun has an external safety, whether it is part of the decocker or not, that is how it is designed to operate. That means that for consistency in safe gun handling, the safety should be engaged when the gun is not ready to be fired (pointed at target).

    I believe MAC702's position is that since some guns are poorly designed so that disengaging the safety becomes a challenge (I've seen a few like that) during presentation that it's not necessary to engage the safety all the times.

    My position is that if a gun has a poorly designed external safety lever and impedes proper disengagement/engagement during presentation, then it's time to trade it for a gun where all the controls are ergonomically accessible and work without difficulty...
    No, that is not my position.

    No amount of poundage on the trigger pull is a substitute for keeping the finger off the trigger until sights are on target. Ask the NYPD.

    I'll ask again. Where does the manufacturer/designer of the gun say that a DA's safety is intended to always be used when the gun is carried? If this were so, why would they make the exact same model without the safety?

    The ergonomics of the safety was a side point. I did not intend for it to distract you from my real point. Indeed, there are some DA autos with very good safety ergonomics (CZ-75 and Taurus PT-92, for examples), and my point remains the same that the safety is optional to engage when the hammer is down and it is carried in a proper holster.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-29-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    SNIP...If a pistol has no external safety and only a decocker, then that is how the gun was designed to operate. Again, no problem.

    However if a handgun has an external safety, whether it is part of the decocker or not, that is how it is designed to operate. That means that for consistency in safe gun handling, the safety should be engaged when the gun is not ready to be fired (pointed at target)....
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702
    No amount of poundage on the trigger pull is a substitute for keeping the finger off the trigger until sights are on target. Ask the NYPD.

    I'll ask again. Where does the manufacturer/designer of the gun say that a DA's safety is intended to always be used when the gun is carried? If this were so, why would they make the exact same model without the safety?
    SNIP... my point remains the same that the safety is optional to engage when the hammer is down and it is carried in a proper holster.
    It seems like you guys are splitting already split hairs?

    Let me see if I understand what you guys are arguing:

    AzCDLFred is saying that safeties should be engaged whenever possible because it is probably how it was designed for safety reasons since some people can be stupid and unsafe (I would imagine a good example is the number of YouTube videos of reckless gun owners).

    MAC702 is saying that these safeties are not critical to firearm function (making it go "bang"), and so the focus should be on proper handling of firearms (teaching people to keep their booger hook away from the bang switch).

    Maybe we're arguing slightly different things here?

    Am I close? Yes, no, maybe so? Tel me please, I wanna know? (said in rhyme)
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 10-29-2013 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    ...MAC702 is saying that these safeties are not critical to firearm function (making it go "bang"), and so the focus should be on proper handling of firearms (teaching people to keep their booger hook away from the bang switch).

    Maybe we're arguing slightly different things here?

    Am I close? Yes, no, maybe so? Tell me please, I wanna know? (said in rhyme)
    Not quite, but close. After all, I do recommend using the safety on a single-action, including one with a grip safety.

    I'm saying a DA automatic does not need to have a thumb safety engaged while being carried loaded in a proper holster. It can (and in my opinion should) be treated as a double-action without a safety, just like most revolvers and many pistols that are double-action but have never had safety levers, like the Sig Sauer P220 series.

    This is independent of keeping your finger off the trigger until sights are on the target.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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