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Thread: Biblical warnings against monarchy

  1. #1
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Biblical warnings against monarchy

    Interesting chapter in the Bible in which the people ask for a king but are warned of the woes of monarchy. Also interesting that the people ignored the warnings and admitted to wanting to be like other nations:

    1 Samuel 8:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...08&version=KJV


    1 Samuel 8

    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.

    2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.

    3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.

    4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

    5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

    6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.

    7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

    8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

    9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

    10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king.

    11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

    12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

    13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

    14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

    15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

    16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

    17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

    18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

    19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

    20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

    21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the Lord.

    22 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    What you wanna bet it wasn't "the people" but some influential folks that wanted some help in monopolizing their desires.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    What you wanna bet it wasn't "the people" but some influential folks that wanted some help in monopolizing their desires.
    Could be that the elders had a hidden agenda:

    4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
    5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I've always found this bit fascinating.

    The notion that rule by a king is mutually exclusive to rule by God is powerful. Immediately, it might make one think of the frequent conflict between conscience and the law. But, at a more fundamental level, it speaks to the difference between believing in the ability of people to self-govern (since God only inspires, he does not control), and believing that people need government.

    But, then there's Leviticus.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    Could be that the elders had a hidden agenda:
    Yes I believe it very well could be, it didn't say all elders, I suspect it was elders as the "leaders" of a group of people, who wanted to be able to have a system in place to protect their monopolies and special interests.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I've always found this bit fascinating.

    The notion that rule by a king is mutually exclusive to rule by God is powerful. Immediately, it might make one think of the frequent conflict between conscience and the law. But, at a more fundamental level, it speaks to the difference between believing in the ability of people to self-govern (since God only inspires, he does not control), and believing that people need government.

    But, then there's Leviticus.
    +1

    Would be an interesting discussion with a christian who believes that U.S. is "Gods" nation, and insist on having their pledges and symbols in having idolatrous mention of "God".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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