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Thread: Refused to provide a gun locker

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    Refused to provide a gun locker

    Hey guys

    Im kind of at an loss here and would hope someone can give me some legal advice. I work at a county jail as a technician and as is my right would like to carry my gun to work. Guns are obviously not allowed inside the jail. However i thought that in areas were guns are not allowed washington state law says that employer shall provide gun lockers. The jail has gun lockers but the powers at be are telling me they are only for the officers. Also they mentioned to me that Ron Simms announced long time ago that he doesnt want any county employee to carry their gun to work. Since when does ron simms overwrite state law?

    Can someone inform me if they are in the right please

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Who is Ron Simms?
    Hes a former king county executive. And sorry its spelled Sims

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    The law applies to courthouses. not jails. it furthermore doesn't apply to "employers" merely the local authority managing the courthouse.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    This should be moved to your state forum, since it's not a general question.
    You'll get more useful answers.
    Even if they have to provide a locker, for the meantime how about using the safe in your car? That way at least you're not vulnerable going to & from.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Re: Refused to provide a gun locker

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Here is the RCW. Only applies to court facilities (not jails) and only required to be provided to visitors, not employees:
    If a facility is required by law to provide a lock box service to visitors, can they prohibit employees from using it?
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    I believe it is spelled "Slimes".

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Refused to provide a gun locker

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Here is the RCW. Only applies to court facilities (not jails) and only required to be provided to visitors, not employees:
    This is the part you missed and what BigDave used to correct the issue at a state prison.

    (8) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070">9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.

    The way I read that is, either get permission from the administrator to carry it, or they must allow you to check it if you have a CPL.

    Perhaps BigDave will chime in with more on his experience.
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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    I work for what is also a government entity in the state of Washington. As an employer, they can prohibit you from exercising your rights, same as walmart can. As a visitor, it is a different case. I can't recall the case, but there was a WA supreme court case involving a bus driver who wanted to carry at work, and it was determined that when the state is acting as the employer, they do have the authority to prohibit possession.
    If Ron Sims is the issue, dig as deep as you can in the policy manual, things often change without things being updated. If that doesn't work, try contacting whoever makes those decisions, and ask them about the policy and state you case as lightly as possible. You are a county employee and because of safety concerns because of where you go and who you work for, you would like the bear arms in defense of self as the WA Const allows, and would like to be able to check your weapons like the officers and general public are able to.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 509rifas View Post
    I work for what is also a government entity in the state of Washington. As an employer, they can prohibit you from exercising your rights, same as walmart can. As a visitor, it is a different case. I can't recall the case, but there was a WA supreme court case involving a bus driver who wanted to carry at work, and it was determined that when the state is acting as the employer, they do have the authority to prohibit possession.
    If Ron Sims is the issue, dig as deep as you can in the policy manual, things often change without things being updated. If that doesn't work, try contacting whoever makes those decisions, and ask them about the policy and state you case as lightly as possible. You are a county employee and because of safety concerns because of where you go and who you work for, you would like the bear arms in defense of self as the WA Const allows, and would like to be able to check your weapons like the officers and general public are able to.
    Difference: the Walmart worker is on private property before entering his actual workplace. The Gov worker is on public property until he enters his workspace and clocks on.

    Metro has no legal obligation to check/secure a citizen's firearm upon request, unlike a courthouse.

    You are a county employee and because of safety concerns because of where you go and who you work for, you would like the bear arms in defense of self
    Status as a current or former employee of the government should not be taken into account for matters of civil rights, like the 2nd Amendment.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ahh, yes, I did miss that. So every day before work the OP would have to go straight to the administrator's office where they would be required to take the gun from the OP and stash it in a desk drawer until the end of shift when the OP would have to go back to the administrator's office to retrieve their gun before leaving the facility by the most direct route.



    Absolutely. What requirement is there in law that says they have to provide it to employees?
    The part where until he clocks in he is a private citizen, unless he is a sworn officer, but the rest of the thread doesn't support that. Of course he has to decide if the extra friction with his employer is worth the cost.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.300does cite that to proceed to have your firearms check but this is where the teeth are.

    I received similar resistance with the County Jail in Yakima but after addressing the County Commissioners and the County Prosecutor the Jail was made to comply but with defiance.


    9.94.043 Deadly weapons -- Possession on premises by person not a prisoner -- Penalty.
    RCW 9.94.043
    Deadly weapons — Possession on premises by person not a prisoner — Penalty.


    A person, other than a person serving a sentence in a penal institution of this state, is guilty of possession of contraband on the premises of a state correctional institution in the first degree if, without authorization to do so, the person knowingly possesses or has under his or her control a deadly weapon on or in the buildings or adjacent grounds subject to the care, control, or supervision of a state correctional institution. Deadly weapon is used as defined in RCW 9A.04.110: PROVIDED, That such correctional buildings, grounds, or property are properly posted pursuant to RCW 9.94.047, and such person has knowingly entered thereon: PROVIDED FURTHER, That the provisions of this section do not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the correctional institution premises, proceeds directly along an access road to the administration building and promptly checks his or her firearm(s) with the appropriate authorities. The person may reclaim his or her firearm(s) upon leaving, but he or she must immediately and directly depart from the premises.

    Possession of contraband on the premises of a state correctional institution in the first degree is a class B felony.

    9.94.049 "Correctional institution" and "state correctional institution" defined.

    (1) For the purposes of this chapter, the term "correctional institution" means any place designated by law for the keeping of persons held in custody under process of law, or under lawful arrest, including state prisons, county and local jails, and other facilities operated by the department of corrections or local governmental units primarily for the purposes of punishment, correction, or rehabilitation following conviction of a criminal offense.

    (2) For the purposes of RCW 9.94.043 and 9.94.045, "state correctional institution" means all state correctional facilities under the supervision of the secretary of the department of corrections used solely for the purpose of confinement of convicted felons.
    Last edited by BigDave; 09-22-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Refused to provide a gun locker

    Thank you Dave.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Thank you Dave.
    welcome
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Regular Member jsanchez's Avatar
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    King county doesn't allow employee's to bring guns on their property. There are employee's who keep guns in their cars and since the county doesn't search employee cars there's your solution, just keep it out of sight and don't talk about, and don't get the reputation of being the gun guy at work. Good luck.

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    Regular Member bebop4one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanchez View Post
    ...don't get the reputation of being the gun guy at work...
    I absolutely agree with that. I made the mistake at my last job of casually talking about my interest in firearms with a coworker on lunch break. Before I knew it he was blabbing to other coworkers "I wouldn't want to be around if they fired this guy" or "dude don't shoot I was just kidding". Not only is it anoying but it can make you look bad or raise suspicion in the ever growing world of anti 2A employers. Keep a low pro and you're all good
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Absolutely. What requirement is there in law that says they have to provide it to employees?
    So you're saying that he's not a citizen when he's off the clock?

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    Thanks for all the responses. I'm just quiet embarrassed that as a sheriffs employee ( technician) , where the detention department ( which is not the sheriffs office ) denies me the right even thou they know what kind of clientele i have to deal with.

    So having read all the responses, is tghe solution, I have the right as long as i'm not clocked in? ?
    And the administrator would HAVE to take control of my weapon ?

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t9alejandro View Post
    Thanks for all the responses. I'm just quiet embarrassed that as a sheriffs employee ( technician) , where the detention department ( which is not the sheriffs office ) denies me the right even thou they know what kind of clientele i have to deal with.

    So having read all the responses, is tghe solution, I have the right as long as i'm not clocked in? ?
    And the administrator would HAVE to take control of my weapon ?
    Did you even read the references I posted for you?
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1987201

    PROVIDED FURTHER, That the provisions of this section do not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the correctional institution premises, proceeds directly along an access road to the administration building and promptly checks his or her firearm(s) with the appropriate authorities. The person may reclaim his or her firearm(s) upon leaving, but he or she must immediately and directly depart from the premises.

    It does not say anything about employees but does state "person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070"

    Do not go into reading the RCW wanting to have it say a specific thing or support a specific position, read it and then see if your circumstances apply, remember our laws are based on what you cannot do not on what you can do, if it doesn't say you can't then you can.

    You are receiving a typical response by someone not knowing the law and just making it up as they go which often derived from that you are doing something illegal when in fact they just do not know the law and abide by it.

    As I stated before (hate repeating myself time and time again) you will likely have to go to the Council or Commissioners along with the City or County Prosecutor impute to resolve this issue.
    From my understanding similar circumstances at the Walla Walla State Penn and now the Officers working there can check their firearms.
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Refused to provide a gun locker

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I don't see anything at all about citizenship. The law only requires that a lock box or person designated to receive the firearm be provided for VISITORS to a court facility. An employee reporting for their assigned duty at the court house is not VISITING the court house - they are reporting for work. If they are there on off-duty time, for some other reason than reporting for work, then they are VISITING.

    Correctional facilities are under a different paragraph in the statute and the wording is different. As BigDave pointed out - the word "VISITOR" applies only to court facilities, whereas the words "persons licensed" applies to correctional facilities. Two entirely different groups of people and different facilities (or portion of the facility).
    Edit
    I misread that.
    Last edited by tombrewster421; 09-24-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So every day before work the OP would have to go straight to the administrator's office where they would be required to take the gun from the OP and stash it in a desk drawer until the end of shift when the OP would have to go back to the administrator's office to retrieve their gun before leaving the facility by the most direct route.

    Can you see how that would play out? When reporting for work the "administrator" wouldn't be available until well after the "clock in" time for the employee thus making him/her late for work. At the end of the day the "administrator" would be "in a meeting" or off the premises until several hours after "clock out" time.

    They'd just fire the employee for being chronically late.

    Oh the ways that a government employer can "eff with" an employee who wants to push an issue they don't like.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Can you see how that would play out? When reporting for work the "administrator" wouldn't be available until well after the "clock in" time for the employee thus making him/her late for work. At the end of the day the "administrator" would be "in a meeting" or off the premises until several hours after "clock out" time.

    They'd just fire the employee for being chronically late.

    Oh the ways that a government employer can "eff with" an employee who wants to push an issue they don't like.
    The administration BUILDING not the administrator.
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Refused to provide a gun locker

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    The administration BUILDING not the administrator.
    It also states "administrator's designee." in 9.41.300

    And "promptly checks his or her firearm(s) with the appropriate authorities" in 9.94.043
    Last edited by tombrewster421; 09-25-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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    New Twist - I am a private citizen getting the same treatment at Coyote Ridge

    It would appear that while RCW 9.94.043 covers me to carry to the facility; the Administrator Jeffrey Uttecht, the Superintendent of Coyote Ridge Corrections Center does not feel, "legally mandated to accommodate or accept weapons for safe storage," by the "Further Provision" clause of 9.94.043 -

    Any suggestions for me as I would like to visit an inmate there?

    BTW - I have a squeaky clean record, no reason for the absurd refusal to allow me to check my firearm(s) at the admin building before entry to the facility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sjzupe View Post
    It would appear that while RCW 9.94.043 covers me to carry to the facility; the Administrator Jeffrey Uttecht, the Superintendent of Coyote Ridge Corrections Center does not feel, "legally mandated to accommodate or accept weapons for safe storage," by the "Further Provision" clause of 9.94.043 -

    Any suggestions for me as I would like to visit an inmate there?

    BTW - I have a squeaky clean record, no reason for the absurd refusal to allow me to check my firearm(s) at the admin building before entry to the facility.
    You need to read, and carefully compare-and-contrast 9.94.043 with RCW 9.41.300 (1). In particular, note that the requirement for court facilities to provide storage is carefully spelled out; no similar requirement is made for correctional facilities.

    Thus, I would read 9.94.043 to mean that you CAN check a weapon if the facility offers that service, and that you CANNOT be charged with violating this section if you, "upon entering the correctional institution premises, proceed directly along an access road to the administration building and promptly" ATTEMPT to check your handgun... but I just don't see where there's anything that says they must accept it.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kparker View Post
    You need to read, and carefully compare-and-contrast 9.94.043 with RCW 9.41.300 (1). In particular, note that the requirement for court facilities to provide storage is carefully spelled out; no similar requirement is made for correctional facilities.

    Thus, I would read 9.94.043 to mean that you CAN check a weapon if the facility offers that service, and that you CANNOT be charged with violating this section if you, "upon entering the correctional institution premises, proceed directly along an access road to the administration building and promptly" ATTEMPT to check your handgun... but I just don't see where there's anything that says they must accept it.
    By that standard a court house could deny someone access to the lock boxes and still comply with the law because they have them for people to use, they're just not letting them use them. The legislative intent is quite clear in both cases, unless you tie yourself in linguistic knots trying to miscontrue them.

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