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Thread: Local Nut-Job Planned to "kill as many people as possible" in shooting rampage

  1. #1
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Local Nut-Job Planned to "kill as many people as possible" in shooting rampage

    His plan was to shoot up a movie theater, shopping centers, and blowing up a bus or metro train just as it crossed under an overpass... TOMORROW! His plan could have been thwarted by one armed citizen.
    However, the Greater Salt Lake UPD got a tip that derailed his plan. Full story at http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=269...slc-police-say Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 09-24-2013 at 03:29 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    VERY interesting. Notice that as of his arrest, he hadn't yet gotten the guns! So it is NOT the possession of the guns that makes these people plan these attacks of evil. Who would have thought?!?!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Some of what he "allegedly" said doesn't add up.

    He said, "I planned on buying two AUTOMATIC handguns with SILENCERS..." This makes NO sense. As we all know he would never buy an AUTOMATIC handgun here, and it would take at least four to six months to get the stamps and other paperwork to obtain the "silencers."

    This is either him spouting off or the officers trying to add some sparkle to their bust. However, being as tomorrow is the supposed day he was planning on doing these things, and he had none of the materials to do so, one has to wonder if he wasn't just a sick man running his mouth. He was in a hospital speaking with a "crisis worker" so one has to wonder if he wasn't in for mental instability in the first place. This sounds like a sick man looking for attention. Someone who is really bent on doing such insidious things isn't going to tell people what they are planning on doing.

    Either way, I'm glad that they investigated this incident. Hopefully this man can get some help. I'd be willing to bet that he is on some type of anti-depressant medication that he or anyone else shouldn't be on.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Some of what he "allegedly" said doesn't add up.

    He said, "I planned on buying two AUTOMATIC handguns with SILENCERS..." This makes NO sense. As we all know he would never buy an AUTOMATIC handgun here, and it would take at least four to six months to get the stamps and other paperwork to obtain the "silencers."
    That thought crossed my mind. too. The only possibility of acquiring such things would be to either steal them from a Class III dealer, like the one about a mile from my home. There's also the outside chance that he had a contact for such equipment in the "black market"

    This is either him spouting off or the officers trying to add some sparkle to their bust. However, being as tomorrow is the supposed day he was planning on doing these things, and he had none of the materials to do so, one has to wonder if he wasn't just a sick man running his mouth. He was in a hospital speaking with a "crisis worker" so one has to wonder if he wasn't in for mental instability in the first place. This sounds like a sick man looking for attention. Someone who is really bent on doing such insidious things isn't going to tell people what they are planning on doing.
    Agreed. As for "telling people", perhaps he was under the impression that since the "crisis worker" was at a hospital, that he was covered by doctor patient privilege. Oooops... bad assumption on his part.

    Either way, I'm glad that they investigated this incident. Hopefully this man can get some help. I'd be willing to bet that he is on some type of anti-depressant medication that he or anyone else shouldn't be on.
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Why does "Judge Dread" come to mind?

    He is charged with a felony and thown in jail on 1 Millon dollars bond; for voicing his thoughts to a medical (mental heath) worker. Wouldn't it be better to get him the help he needs and keep an eye on him until he gets better. I do think he has a mental issue and needs help but what is preventing the goverment from framing someone they say thought something? Ms. Cleo will be the goverments star witness.

    He had a plan but not the means, no guns nor bomb making materials. He could get a lawyer to say he was taking up writing a fictional book about terroism and was doing research, he could also say he was just running his plot ideas past the medical worker and cops to get their thoughts. With the right lawyer this would be a waste of money and time and he still won't get treatment.

    Making terrorist threats is a way of saying you don't have a first admendment right if they don't like what you say.

    Guilty until proven innocent is the new way with the goverment.

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    Stiles had "specific, detailed plans to engage in a mass shooting" on Sept 25, the anniversary of his mother's death, according to the charging documents. He allegedly told investigators that his plan included purchasing two automatic handguns with silencers and five extra magazines, and he had already "scoped and mapped out the best spots to hide that will still allow him to kill the most amount of people."


    Well, this guy's plan ain't to good .... he needs a BATF license to get the silencers ... and that takes time beyond the 25th of Sept.

    And is just making a plan an offense? Its not a threat if you keep it secret....

    But he did tell someone so maybe it could be considered a threat...

    As wacky as this guy is, I wonder how just making plans affects the legal liability of preppers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post

    As wacky as this guy is, I wonder how just making plans affects the legal liability of preppers.

    Apples to Mangos. Preppers (for the most part) are about becoming self-sufficient and enabling/acting out defensive plans. Having a plan designed to assault people and kill them is on the opposite end of the spectrum. If there are preppers who have created an offensive strategy designed to inflict harm on others in time of duress, then that takes a bit more investigation. However, I would think that most of those plans would fall under 1A rights; otherwise apocalyptic books and movies wouldn't be legal. Having a plan is not the same as acting out a plan. You can't take it at face value, you need to gauge the intent.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Why does "Judge Dread" come to mind?

    He is charged with a felony and thown in jail on 1 Millon dollars bond; for voicing his thoughts to a medical (mental heath) worker. Wouldn't it be better to get him the help he needs and keep an eye on him until he gets better. I do think he has a mental issue and needs help but what is preventing the goverment from framing someone they say thought something? Ms. Cleo will be the goverments star witness.
    a. Stiles made a statement indicating that he planned to commit an act of terrorism.
    b. Based upon his own statement, Stiles is obviously considered "a threat to himself or others" (to ignore such a statement these days is not only foolish, but negligent).
    c. Protections against the government manufacturing charges - and SUPPORTING EVIDENCE - are virtually non-existent, but not everybody is willing to become a co-conspirator.

    He had a plan but not the means, no guns nor bomb making materials. He could get a lawyer to say he was taking up writing a fictional book about terroism and was doing research, he could also say he was just running his plot ideas past the medical worker and cops to get their thoughts. With the right lawyer this would be a waste of money and time and he still won't get treatment.
    Just because there were no weapons or bomb-making materials found, does not mean they do not exist in some secret location. Corrupt lawyers abound, both for the prosecution and the defense. He could easily find a lawyer to spin almost any yarn he desired... IF he could afford the cost. The hard part would be to find 12 idiots that would believe that he was "writing a book", and his research required him to make terroristic threats.

    Making terrorist threats is a way of saying you don't have a first admendment right if they don't like what you say.

    Guilty until proven innocent is the new way with the goverment.
    At the risk of repeating myself - to ignore the threat of an act of terrorism these days is not only foolish, but negligent. It is no more covered under 1A than is screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater considered an expression of 1A. Personally, I would evacuate myself from the theater. You can wait until you see the flames and felt the heat, if that's what you choose.

    The job of the police is to act upon threats, not to determine the validity of those threats. That is the job of the courts, and that is where his application of 1A rights will be determined. Pax...
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    a. Stiles made a statement indicating that he planned to commit an act of terrorism.
    b. Based upon his own statement, Stiles is obviously considered "a threat to himself or others" (to ignore such a statement these days is not only foolish, but negligent).
    c. Protections against the government manufacturing charges - and SUPPORTING EVIDENCE - are virtually non-existent, but not everybody is willing to become a co-conspirator.

    Just because there were no weapons or bomb-making materials found, does not mean they do not exist in some secret location. Corrupt lawyers abound, both for the prosecution and the defense. He could easily find a lawyer to spin almost any yarn he desired... IF he could afford the cost. The hard part would be to find 12 idiots that would believe that he was "writing a book", and his research required him to make terroristic threats.

    At the risk of repeating myself - to ignore the threat of an act of terrorism these days is not only foolish, but negligent. It is no more covered under 1A than is screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater considered an expression of 1A. Personally, I would evacuate myself from the theater. You can wait until you see the flames and felt the heat, if that's what you choose.

    The job of the police is to act upon threats, not to determine the validity of those threats. That is the job of the courts, and that is where his application of 1A rights will be determined. Pax...
    I don't disagree that this guy needs help, as a matter of fact I really hope he gets it. My problem is (in this day and age = no freedom) is that charges like "making terrorist threats" can become a slippery slop. Could you be charged with making a terrorist thrreat if you out of passion or when threatened echo a threat such as "I'm going to kick your butt"?

    If you read what I said, I agree that the threat shouldn't be dismissed but arrested for a felony with a million dollars bail for a thought isn't getting him help.

    Can you please cite were it is the job of the police to act upon threats? I know the SCOTUS said they don't have to protect but if the PD's job is to act upon threats than every OCer would be face planted into the ground either for the percieved threat or officer safety.

    I agree to a point and understand the whole being vigulant, this is one reason we all carry. To ignore the state making laws to remove liberty, thought, and speech is to invite submission and slavery.

    Where would you like the line drawn? In a perfect world of course.

    911 could have been a reason to declare marshal law are you ok with that? For everyone safety of course.

    The NSA spying on Americans, listening and/or recording our phone calls, but it is to protect us. I know your ok with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Why does "Judge Dread" come to mind?

    He is charged with a felony and thown in jail on 1 Millon dollars bond; for voicing his thoughts to a medical (mental heath) worker. Wouldn't it be better to get him the help he needs and keep an eye on him until he gets better. I do think he has a mental issue and needs help but what is preventing the goverment from framing someone they say thought something? Ms. Cleo will be the goverments star witness.

    He had a plan but not the means, no guns nor bomb making materials. He could get a lawyer to say he was taking up writing a fictional book about terroism and was doing research, he could also say he was just running his plot ideas past the medical worker and cops to get their thoughts. With the right lawyer this would be a waste of money and time and he still won't get treatment.

    Making terrorist threats is a way of saying you don't have a first admendment right if they don't like what you say.

    Guilty until proven innocent is the new way with the goverment.
    Keep an eye on him??

    Ann Coulter argues that we should start locking these potential killing machines up in hospitals again. I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Apples to Mangos. Preppers (for the most part) are about becoming self-sufficient and enabling/acting out defensive plans. Having a plan designed to assault people and kill them is on the opposite end of the spectrum. If there are preppers who have created an offensive strategy designed to inflict harm on others in time of duress, then that takes a bit more investigation. However, I would think that most of those plans would fall under 1A rights; otherwise apocalyptic books and movies wouldn't be legal. Having a plan is not the same as acting out a plan. You can't take it at face value, you need to gauge the intent.
    I'm sure some preppers have plans to get weapons kept at local PDs and armories. Why not? Why spend $$$ on arms when others already have and they would be ripe for the taking? These WOULD be plans for assaulting people. But at that point, its going to be a free-for-all, right?

    I understand how people can see one plan different than another ... but just writing a plan down on paper .. this makes you guilty of something?

    Acting out a plan is different, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I'm sure some preppers have plans to get weapons kept at local PDs and armories. Why not? Why spend $$$ on arms when others already have and they would be ripe for the taking? These WOULD be plans for assaulting people. But at that point, its going to be a free-for-all, right?

    I understand how people can see one plan different than another ... but just writing a plan down on paper .. this makes you guilty of something?...
    There is a difference when one plan says: "In case of extreme emergency, I'm going to do this act of felony theft in this specific way," and another credible plan says: "I'm just going to go kill people on this certain day in these specific ways."
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Keep an eye on him??

    Ann Coulter argues that we should start locking these potential killing machines up in hospitals again. I agree.
    Yes keep an eye on him, as in a hospital until he/she can be evaluated and treated if needed. Something tells me that if the shooter of the Navel yard would have had an evaluation and then treatment for his anger and PTSD issues this event might not have happened.

    The legal system let him down by not procecuting him for his crimes, the military failed him for not requiring an evaluation upon discharge, and the company that did the clearance for him failed uncover any of this.

    Yes they should keep an eye on him until he gets an evaluation and if required treatment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    There is a difference when one plan says: "In case of extreme emergency, I'm going to do this act of felony theft in this specific way," and another credible plan says: "I'm just going to go kill people on this certain day in these specific ways."
    I guess it boils down to the word "credible".

    Does the person have the knowledge to do it?
    Does the person have the equipment to do it?
    Does the person have the ability to do it?
    Does the person have a history of doing it?

    or

    Is the person blowing smoke?

    Who makes the determination? Who decides if your a threat?

    When someone threatens the POTUS they are investigated by the secret service and either arrested or taken to a hospital for evaluation of mental status.

    My only concern would be the goverment making the determination and enforcing any and all percived threats without oversight. I have worked for the goverment my entire adult like and I wouldn't trust them to give me the correct time of day. It could be a slippery slop and a means to make people disapear that disagree with the goverment. All they have to do is say you made a threat and you might end up in a FEMA camp or commited to a mental hospital.

    Were is the jump from being jailed for thoughts to the concentration camps Hitler had in germany. (not all camps were just for the jews..I have been to Dachau)

    A threat should be taken seriously and investigatedand the suspect be evaluated I agree, but absent of the means a person shouldn't be automaticly thrown into a cell just for voicing a thought.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    I guess it boils down to the word "credible"....
    I agree, and I'm glad I'm not the one charged with making that call.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I'm sure some preppers have plans to get weapons kept at local PDs and armories. Why not? Why spend $$$ on arms when others already have and they would be ripe for the taking? These WOULD be plans for assaulting people. But at that point, its going to be a free-for-all, right?

    I understand how people can see one plan different than another ... but just writing a plan down on paper .. this makes you guilty of something?

    Acting out a plan is different, of course.
    Depends upon the plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Depends upon the plan.
    I would say someone drawing up plans to make a nuclear device is petty serious. Even if the plans are actually accurate one would have to look at the ability to make it. We are not dealing with fantasy were you can get the required plutonium on every corner as well as the required parts.

    Saying your going to make a nuclear ICBM and actually being able to are two different things.

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    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    This should be enough reason to lock them up and throw away the cheese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    This should be enough reason to lock them up and throw away the cheese.
    I don't think you should minnie-mouse around the problem, tell us how you really feel towards these laboratory experiments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Some of what he "allegedly" said doesn't add up.

    He said, "I planned on buying two AUTOMATIC handguns with SILENCERS..." This makes NO sense. As we all know he would never buy an AUTOMATIC handgun here, and it would take at least four to six months to get the stamps and other paperwork to obtain the "silencers."
    In my experience, many people mean semiautomatic (not fully automatic) when they say automatic. The media is the worst offender with this but I've heard gun people do it, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    In my experience, many people mean semiautomatic (not fully automatic) when they say automatic. The media is the worst offender with this but I've heard gun people do it, too.
    And it may not be too incorrect. A semiautomatic firing weapon is also known as an automatically loading weapon, or autoloader.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    And it may not be too incorrect. A semiautomatic firing weapon is also known as an automatically loading weapon, or autoloader.
    Indeed, as in .45 ACP = Automatic Colt Pistol, auto loading pistol.

    When I mean "automatic" fire, I say full auto or fully automatic.
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