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Thread: Policy at my kids school.

  1. #1
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Policy at my kids school.

    My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

    I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

    A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
    1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
    2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

    Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

    and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

    My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

    I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

    A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
    1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
    2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

    Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

    and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

    My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?
    Head Start is a nonprofit, not directly affiliated with the state of michigan, and can therefore ban firearms on their private property, and bind you to certain rules as part of participation in their programming.

    Bylaws: http://michheadstart.org/sites/michh...A%20Bylaws.pdf

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Zig, are you sure preemption wouldn't apply? If the school system is controlled by a local government entity, do they even have the right to lease the use of the property to an organization which infringes on preemption?

    I am confident they would get away with it if not confronted with a serious person with serious legal knowledge, but if it was pushed, and there is no other law or case law to refer to, it seems that there isn't much wiggle room to screw around with preemption.

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Zig, are you sure preemption wouldn't apply? If the school system is controlled by a local government entity, do they even have the right to lease the use of the property to an organization which infringes on preemption?

    I am confident they would get away with it if not confronted with a serious person with serious legal knowledge, but if it was pushed, and there is no other law or case law to refer to, it seems that there isn't much wiggle room to screw around with preemption.

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    If I won a contract with the state to build MSHDA homes, I don't have to allow carry at my business headquarters due to preemption.

    As a private entity under contract with the state, they are not suddenly magically preempted.

    They are not leasing the use of their property to the state. They run the whole Head Start Program to the standards required by contract with the state, and run the business on their own, independent chain of command.
    Last edited by zigziggityzoo; 09-24-2013 at 03:10 PM.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    If I won a contract with the state to build MSHDA homes, I don't have to allow carry at my business headquarters due to preemption.

    As a private entity under contract with the state, they are not suddenly magically preempted.

    They are not leasing the use of their property to the state. They run the whole Head Start Program to the standards required by contract with the state, and run the business on their own, independent chain of command.
    In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI
    So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
    Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

    I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

    A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
    1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
    2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

    Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

    and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

    My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?
    Well...concealed is concealed...correct?
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Well...concealed is concealed...correct?
    no (person in another state). concealed carry is not legal on school property in michigan. the OP is referring to the nuances of michigan firearms laws that allow open carry with a CPL on school property.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 09-24-2013 at 04:24 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school


    So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
    Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.
    you make a good point, evil. it may be the property itself that is preempted rather than the organization itself. similar to a festival leasing public property and trying to make their own laws.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school


    So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
    Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.
    A non-government entity within the government. Being somewhat like a post office located within a mall/store that is not known/posted as a GFZ. Stay out of the post office and you're legal?

  10. #10
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    no (person in another state). concealed carry is not legal on school property in michigan. the OP is referring to the nuances of michigan firearms laws that allow open carry with a CPL on school property.
    Well...person in another state...concealed is concealed...and unseen. :-) but i do understand whatcha mean. ;-)
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Well...person in another state...concealed is concealed...and unseen. :-) but i do understand whatcha mean. ;-)
    So what you are suggesting is that the op breaks the law and illegally carry in a gun free zone?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  12. #12
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    Wait till next year when you kid enters kindergarten then you may OC at his/her school all you want
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Well...person in another state...concealed is concealed...and unseen. :-) but i do understand whatcha mean. ;-)
    oh, gotcha. i misunderstood your point. it is interesting to note, cough, cough, that the first time offense for carrying concealed (accidentally, of course) in a place like a school is only a civil infraction in michigan.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    So what you are suggesting is that the op breaks the law and illegally carry in a gun free zone?
    Nope...nor am I trying to be confrontational to a fellow OCDO member.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    Don't have kids myself, but is this program required by the educational system, or is it optional?
    It is an optional program that I put my son into. He is provided with bus transportation, so I really am unaffected. I guess when I do have to go there, i.e. emergency, doctors appointment, etc.... I will leave it in the glove box or hopefully have my wife there and she can just go in.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    The Michigan Head Start Association is merely a membership alliance founded to promote and advocate for equal opportunities for all Head Start children, families and programs. Much like a school district's membership in the Michigan Association of School Boards has little to do with how schools are operated, the Michigan Head Start Association has little to do with how the Head Start Programs are operated.


    The Head Start Program is, however, a program of the United States Department of Health and Human Services that provides comprehensive education, health, nutrition, and parent involvement services. The United States Department of Health and Human Services is a cabinet-level department of the U.S. federal government. As a department of the federal government, certain regulations are promulgated and, although these regulations are not laws, regulations have the force of law since they are adopted under authority granted by statutes. The regulations state no firearms or other weapons can be kept in areas occupied or accessible to children. (see below)


    In regards to preemption, the law states:


    MCL 123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or
    regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer,
    transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or
    components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991.


    As you can see, Michigan’s law does provide an exception for “federal law”


    Therefore, it appears that the Head Start Program CAN enforce its “No Firearms” rule and Michigan Law provides an exception in their preemption statute which allows them to do this.


    **
    Head Start Program Performance Standards
    <SNIP>
    (2) Injury prevention. Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that:
    (i) Children enrolled in the Head Start family child care program option are protected from potentially hazardous situations. Providers must ensure that children are safe from the potential hazards posed by appliances (stove, refrigerator, microwave, etc). Premises must be free from pests and the use of chemicals or other potentially harmful materials for controlling pests must not occur while children are on premises.
    (ii) Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that all sites attended by children enrolled in Head Start and Early Head Start are equipped with functioning and properly located smoke and carbon monoxide detectors.
    (iii) Radon detectors are installed in family child care homes where there is a basement and such detectors are recommended by local health officials;
    (iv) Children are supervised at all times. Providers must have systems for assuring the safety of any child not within view for any period (e.g.
    the provider needs to use the bathroom or an infant is napping in one room while toddlers play in another room);
    (v) Providers ensure the safety of children whenever any body of water, road, or other potential hazard is present and when children are being transported;
    (vi) Unsupervised access by children to all water hazards, such as pools or other bodies of water, are prevented by a fence;
    (vii) There are no firearms or other weapons kept in areas occupied or accessible to children;
    (viii) Alcohol and other drugs are not consumed while children are present or accessible to children at any time; and
    (ix) Providers secure health certificates for pets to document up to date immunizations and freedom from any disease or condition that poses a threat to children's health. Family child care providers must ensure that pets are appropriately managed to ensure child safety at all times.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-26-2013 at 11:29 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    The Michigan Head Start Association is merely a membership alliance founded to promote and advocate for equal opportunities for all Head Start children, families and programs. Much like a school district's membership in the Michigan Association of School Boards has little to do with how schools are operated, the Michigan Head Start Association has little to do with how the Head Start Programs are operated.


    The Head Start Program is, however, a program of the United States Department of Health and Human Services that provides comprehensive education, health, nutrition, and parent involvement services. The United States Department of Health and Human Services is a cabinet-level department of the U.S. federal government. As a department of the federal government, certain regulations are promulgated and, although these regulations are not laws, regulations have the force of law since they are adopted under authority granted by statutes. The regulations state no firearms or other weapons can be kept in areas occupied or accessible to children. (see below)


    In regards to preemption, the law states:


    MCL 123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or
    regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer,
    transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or
    components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991.


    As you can see, Michigan’s law does provide an exception for “federal law”


    Therefore, it appears that the Head Start Program CAN enforce its “No Firearms” rule and Michigan Law provides an exception in their preemption statute which allows them to do this.


    **
    Head Start Program Performance Standards
    <SNIP>
    (2) Injury prevention. Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that:
    (i) Children enrolled in the Head Start family child care program option are protected from potentially hazardous situations. Providers must ensure that children are safe from the potential hazards posed by appliances (stove, refrigerator, microwave, etc). Premises must be free from pests and the use of chemicals or other potentially harmful materials for controlling pests must not occur while children are on premises.
    (ii) Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that all sites attended by children enrolled in Head Start and Early Head Start are equipped with functioning and properly located smoke and carbon monoxide detectors.
    (iii) Radon detectors are installed in family child care homes where there is a basement and such detectors are recommended by local health officials;
    (iv) Children are supervised at all times. Providers must have systems for assuring the safety of any child not within view for any period (e.g.
    the provider needs to use the bathroom or an infant is napping in one room while toddlers play in another room);
    (v) Providers ensure the safety of children whenever any body of water, road, or other potential hazard is present and when children are being transported;
    (vi) Unsupervised access by children to all water hazards, such as pools or other bodies of water, are prevented by a fence;
    (vii) There are no firearms or other weapons kept in areas occupied or accessible to children;
    (viii) Alcohol and other drugs are not consumed while children are present or accessible to children at any time; and
    (ix) Providers secure health certificates for pets to document up to date immunizations and freedom from any disease or condition that poses a threat to children's health. Family child care providers must ensure that pets are appropriately managed to ensure child safety at all times.
    But... but... but...

    My safariland 6280 is neither occupied nor accessible to children. :-D

    ....no I'm not an idiot, I have no desire to float that one to a judge.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    ....no I'm not an idiot, I have no desire to float that one to a judge.
    Why not? The cops often carry in schools with level 2-4 Safariland rigs, and I see no exemption for them here.
    Last edited by Michigander; 09-26-2013 at 11:41 PM.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Is there some law somewhere that says it's illegal for you to ask them these questions?


    So out of my curiosity I went to http://michheadstart.org/contact-us and asked them this-
    What are the rules regarding parents that are the legal owners of firearms, and the firearms are at home? Does this remove them from the Head Start programs? What if one or both of the parents are lawful holders of state concealed carry permits?
    Perhaps I missed the part where you said that you asked them about this.

    I never said anything about you, your name or your nick, so there should be no connection that anyone can see. Other than posting on the same forum.
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    Is there some law somewhere that says it's illegal for you to ask them these questions?


    So out of my curiosity I went to http://michheadstart.org/contact-us and asked them this-


    Perhaps I missed the part where you said that you asked them about this.

    I never said anything about you, your name or your nick, so there should be no connection that anyone can see. Other than posting on the same forum.
    his question was can they really kick his kid out, do you think that asking headstart if their information in their booklet is legal will work?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  21. #21
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    Is there some law somewhere that says it's illegal for you to ask them these questions?


    So out of my curiosity I went to http://michheadstart.org/contact-us and asked them this-


    Perhaps I missed the part where you said that you asked them about this.

    I never said anything about you, your name or your nick, so there should be no connection that anyone can see. Other than posting on the same forum.
    My sarcasm meter does not seem to be working this morning. Either that or perhaps I missed any point you were trying to make. I figure best to ask here before getting my kid who gets excited by the sight of a school bus removed from the program because his father exercises a right. Treading water to the deep end is a whole lot safer than jumping in and realizing you cannot swim.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Policy at my kids school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Why not? The cops often carry in schools with level 2-4 Safariland rigs, and I see no exemption for them here.
    Somewhat OT: Interesting thing besides no exemption for them in the Head Start regs...LEOs also have no exemption from the federal gfz law if they are off duty... unless they have a CPL...

    Regarding carry in a home that runs a Head Start program, it appears that firearms could be kept in an area of the home that is not accessible to the children. If that were the case, OC or CC around the kids would be out but "keeping" a firearm in an area of the home that you keep children out of seems "legal". I'm not a lawyer so take this conjecture for what it's worth...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-27-2013 at 06:33 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Head Start Program Performance Standards
    ...
    (2) Injury prevention. Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that:
    ...
    (vii) There are no firearms or other weapons kept in areas occupied or accessible to children;
    (viii) Alcohol and other drugs are not consumed while children are present or accessible to children at any time
    Notice the difference?
    It says drugs can't be accessable to or used around kids,
    but firearms can't be accessable to or stored around them.
    A pistol in a holster is not stored, nor is it accessable.

    Merriam-Webster says stored means:
    "to put (something that is not being used) in a place where it is available, where it can be kept safely, etc."

    Does that booklet your kid came home with also mention that it's just as prohibited to smoke around the kids, or for any parent or childcare worker to have cigarettes in her/his purse or pocket while around the kids? Or tylenol, or a prescription drug. (After all, if they're reasoning that a holster is accessable to a 3yo, then certainly their purse or pocket is accessable too, right?) :P

  24. #24
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneForAll View Post
    My sarcasm meter does not seem to be working this morning. Either that or perhaps I missed any point you were trying to make. I figure best to ask here before getting my kid who gets excited by the sight of a school bus removed from the program because his father exercises a right. Treading water to the deep end is a whole lot safer than jumping in and realizing you cannot swim.
    You missed the point I was making...ok. I made an inquiry and if they respond I'll get you their answer. Essentially if they receive any funding from any government program then now they cannot punish your child or you for your lawful exercise of a Constitutional right. On the other hand what they really do in real life is completely different.

    That is why I suggested that you could ask them via e-mail. What are they gonna do? Try to trace back the e-mail to you and see who you are? IIRC there's a couple federal laws that say they can't do that, but then I could be wrong about that.

    I suggest getting a copy of the rule, regulation, laws and by laws for the group and reading up, and it wouldn't hurt to talk to a lawyer.

    Personally I think you're paranoid, but that's me.
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    Registering gun owners to prevent crime, is like registering Jews to prevent a HOLOCAUST.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan 5 View Post
    You missed the point I was making...ok. I made an inquiry and if they respond I'll get you their answer. Essentially if they receive any funding from any government program then now they cannot punish your child or you for your lawful exercise of a Constitutional right. On the other hand what they really do in real life is completely different.

    That is why I suggested that you could ask them via e-mail. What are they gonna do? Try to trace back the e-mail to you and see who you are? IIRC there's a couple federal laws that say they can't do that, but then I could be wrong about that.

    I suggest getting a copy of the rule, regulation, laws and by laws for the group and reading up, and it wouldn't hurt to talk to a lawyer.

    Personally I think you're paranoid, but that's me.
    How did anything I type indicate, 1. I was paranoid, 2. not looking into this matter myself, 3. speaking with attorneys, and 4. anything else you are assuming? My comment to you was based on you assuming I was not fighting for my rights whether they know who I am or not. I had a simple question into the matter and then I went from there. As far as now my son catches a bus and I plan on doing what I can to get this rule removed from their B.S. policy. Thank you for inquiring on the subject assuming I was paranoid and would not do it myself.
    Last edited by OneForAll; 09-28-2013 at 02:47 PM.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

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