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Policy at my kids school.

OneForAll

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
278
Location
Davison
My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?
 

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?

Head Start is a nonprofit, not directly affiliated with the state of michigan, and can therefore ban firearms on their private property, and bind you to certain rules as part of participation in their programming.

Bylaws: http://michheadstart.org/sites/michheadstart.org/files/u6/MHSA Bylaws.pdf
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Zig, are you sure preemption wouldn't apply? If the school system is controlled by a local government entity, do they even have the right to lease the use of the property to an organization which infringes on preemption?

I am confident they would get away with it if not confronted with a serious person with serious legal knowledge, but if it was pushed, and there is no other law or case law to refer to, it seems that there isn't much wiggle room to screw around with preemption.

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
 

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Zig, are you sure preemption wouldn't apply? If the school system is controlled by a local government entity, do they even have the right to lease the use of the property to an organization which infringes on preemption?

I am confident they would get away with it if not confronted with a serious person with serious legal knowledge, but if it was pushed, and there is no other law or case law to refer to, it seems that there isn't much wiggle room to screw around with preemption.

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.


If I won a contract with the state to build MSHDA homes, I don't have to allow carry at my business headquarters due to preemption.

As a private entity under contract with the state, they are not suddenly magically preempted.

They are not leasing the use of their property to the state. They run the whole Head Start Program to the standards required by contract with the state, and run the business on their own, independent chain of command.
 
Last edited:

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
If I won a contract with the state to build MSHDA homes, I don't have to allow carry at my business headquarters due to preemption.

As a private entity under contract with the state, they are not suddenly magically preempted.

They are not leasing the use of their property to the state. They run the whole Head Start Program to the standards required by contract with the state, and run the business on their own, independent chain of command.

In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school
OP said:
My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI

So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
My son goes to Head Start at a public school in Davison MI. Today he came home with a booklet in which it stated this,

I. Guns, firearms, and ammunition

A. Anyone, Parent, Child, Visitor, or employee, found to be in the possession of a firearm or ammunition during Head Start programming, or while on the property of any Head Start Facility, the following will occur:
1. 911 is called and a Police Report is filed.
2. Family is removed permanently from all Head Start services.

Special Note: If, as a result of Court ordered treatment, it is determined that re-entry into Head Start is recommended, Head Start staff, appropriate Professional and Building Managers, as applicable, will consider the request for re-entry.

and it goes on about knifes and stuff......

My question is this, can they really kick my kid out of the program even if I have a CPL?

Well...concealed is concealed...correct?
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school


So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.
you make a good point, evil. it may be the property itself that is preempted rather than the organization itself. similar to a festival leasing public property and trying to make their own laws.
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
In this case it seems that they, while a private organization, are operating inside a public school


So in that case wouldn't preemption apply there?
Even if it does, however, that would not prevent the program from kicking someone out [of the program, not the building], it would only protect you from legal ramifications.

A non-government entity within the government. Being somewhat like a post office located within a mall/store that is not known/posted as a GFZ. Stay out of the post office and you're legal?
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
no (person in another state). concealed carry is not legal on school property in michigan. the OP is referring to the nuances of michigan firearms laws that allow open carry with a CPL on school property.

Well...person in another state...concealed is concealed...and unseen. :) but i do understand whatcha mean. ;-)
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
Well...person in another state...concealed is concealed...and unseen. :) but i do understand whatcha mean. ;-)
oh, gotcha. i misunderstood your point. it is interesting to note, cough, cough, that the first time offense for carrying concealed (accidentally, of course) in a place like a school is only a civil infraction in michigan.:dude:
 

22Luke36

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Above and Beyond.
If the law requires you to carry openly while on the school property with a CPL, then the law which preempts them from violating your rights also must apply.
 

OneForAll

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
278
Location
Davison
Don't have kids myself, but is this program required by the educational system, or is it optional?

It is an optional program that I put my son into. He is provided with bus transportation, so I really am unaffected. I guess when I do have to go there, i.e. emergency, doctors appointment, etc.... I will leave it in the glove box or hopefully have my wife there and she can just go in.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
The Michigan Head Start Association is merely a membership alliance founded to promote and advocate for equal opportunities for all Head Start children, families and programs. Much like a school district's membership in the Michigan Association of School Boards has little to do with how schools are operated, the Michigan Head Start Association has little to do with how the Head Start Programs are operated.


The Head Start Program is, however, a program of the United States Department of Health and Human Services that provides comprehensive education, health, nutrition, and parent involvement services. The United States Department of Health and Human Services is a cabinet-level department of the U.S. federal government. As a department of the federal government, certain regulations are promulgated and, although these regulations are not laws, regulations have the force of law since they are adopted under authority granted by statutes. The regulations state no firearms or other weapons can be kept in areas occupied or accessible to children. (see below)


In regards to preemption, the law states:


MCL 123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or
regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer,
transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or
components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991.


As you can see, Michigan’s law does provide an exception for “federal law”


Therefore, it appears that the Head Start Program CAN enforce its “No Firearms” rule and Michigan Law provides an exception in their preemption statute which allows them to do this.


**
Head Start Program Performance Standards
<SNIP>
(2) Injury prevention. Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that:
(i) Children enrolled in the Head Start family child care program option are protected from potentially hazardous situations. Providers must ensure that children are safe from the potential hazards posed by appliances (stove, refrigerator, microwave, etc). Premises must be free from pests and the use of chemicals or other potentially harmful materials for controlling pests must not occur while children are on premises.
(ii) Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that all sites attended by children enrolled in Head Start and Early Head Start are equipped with functioning and properly located smoke and carbon monoxide detectors.
(iii) Radon detectors are installed in family child care homes where there is a basement and such detectors are recommended by local health officials;
(iv) Children are supervised at all times. Providers must have systems for assuring the safety of any child not within view for any period (e.g.
the provider needs to use the bathroom or an infant is napping in one room while toddlers play in another room);
(v) Providers ensure the safety of children whenever any body of water, road, or other potential hazard is present and when children are being transported;
(vi) Unsupervised access by children to all water hazards, such as pools or other bodies of water, are prevented by a fence;
(vii) There are no firearms or other weapons kept in areas occupied or accessible to children;
(viii) Alcohol and other drugs are not consumed while children are present or accessible to children at any time; and
(ix) Providers secure health certificates for pets to document up to date immunizations and freedom from any disease or condition that poses a threat to children's health. Family child care providers must ensure that pets are appropriately managed to ensure child safety at all times.
 
Last edited:

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
The Michigan Head Start Association is merely a membership alliance founded to promote and advocate for equal opportunities for all Head Start children, families and programs. Much like a school district's membership in the Michigan Association of School Boards has little to do with how schools are operated, the Michigan Head Start Association has little to do with how the Head Start Programs are operated.


The Head Start Program is, however, a program of the United States Department of Health and Human Services that provides comprehensive education, health, nutrition, and parent involvement services. The United States Department of Health and Human Services is a cabinet-level department of the U.S. federal government. As a department of the federal government, certain regulations are promulgated and, although these regulations are not laws, regulations have the force of law since they are adopted under authority granted by statutes. The regulations state no firearms or other weapons can be kept in areas occupied or accessible to children. (see below)


In regards to preemption, the law states:


MCL 123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or
regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer,
transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or
components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991.


As you can see, Michigan’s law does provide an exception for “federal law”


Therefore, it appears that the Head Start Program CAN enforce its “No Firearms” rule and Michigan Law provides an exception in their preemption statute which allows them to do this.


**
Head Start Program Performance Standards
<SNIP>
(2) Injury prevention. Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that:
(i) Children enrolled in the Head Start family child care program option are protected from potentially hazardous situations. Providers must ensure that children are safe from the potential hazards posed by appliances (stove, refrigerator, microwave, etc). Premises must be free from pests and the use of chemicals or other potentially harmful materials for controlling pests must not occur while children are on premises.
(ii) Grantee and delegate agencies must ensure that all sites attended by children enrolled in Head Start and Early Head Start are equipped with functioning and properly located smoke and carbon monoxide detectors.
(iii) Radon detectors are installed in family child care homes where there is a basement and such detectors are recommended by local health officials;
(iv) Children are supervised at all times. Providers must have systems for assuring the safety of any child not within view for any period (e.g.
the provider needs to use the bathroom or an infant is napping in one room while toddlers play in another room);
(v) Providers ensure the safety of children whenever any body of water, road, or other potential hazard is present and when children are being transported;
(vi) Unsupervised access by children to all water hazards, such as pools or other bodies of water, are prevented by a fence;
(vii) There are no firearms or other weapons kept in areas occupied or accessible to children;
(viii) Alcohol and other drugs are not consumed while children are present or accessible to children at any time; and
(ix) Providers secure health certificates for pets to document up to date immunizations and freedom from any disease or condition that poses a threat to children's health. Family child care providers must ensure that pets are appropriately managed to ensure child safety at all times.

But... but... but...

My safariland 6280 is neither occupied nor accessible to children. :-D

....no I'm not an idiot, I have no desire to float that one to a judge.
 
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