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Thread: FBI bypasses ATF on Navy Yard gun trace. ATF Kept out of the Loop After Shooting.

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    FBI bypasses ATF on Navy Yard gun trace. ATF Kept out of the Loop After Shooting.

    "Within hours of the Navy Yard shootings, the FBI had traced the gunman's recent shotgun purchase and sent agents to the shop in northern Virginia where he bought it. Left out of the loop was the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a surprising snub between top U.S. law enforcement agencies that comes as the ATF struggles to show its relevance in Washington."

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...oting-20332955

    Not relevance, but competence!

    http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/225101342.html

    "Bad blood between two federal law enforcement agencies appears to have surfaced again last week when the FBI traced the gun used in the Navy Yard shooting, taking a job typically belonging to the ATF."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    I know that the ATF can initiate a trace. We are required to respond to them--and have dealt with several. I know of no such authority from the FBI. If they came into my shop, I'd refuse to comply unless they had a warrant that named our records or until our general counsel OKed it.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I know that the ATF can initiate a trace. We are required to respond to them--and have dealt with several. I know of no such authority from the FBI. If they came into my shop, I'd refuse to comply unless they had a warrant that named our records or until our general counsel OKed it.
    well lets clarify this, the FBI has the exact same statutory authority as the ATF. the legal requirements for the 4473s are in the title 18 USC

    the FBI has the authority to enforce any part of 18 USC including the portions involving your records.

    see federal law is
    28 USC 533

    The Attorney General may appoint officialsó
    (1) to detect and prosecute crimes against the United States;
    (note, title 18 USC is crimes against the United States)
    (2) to assist in the protection of the person of the President; and [1]
    (3) to assist in the protection of the person of the Attorney General. [2]
    (4) to conduct such other investigations regarding official matters under the control of the Department of Justice and the Department of State as may be directed by the Attorney General.
    This section does not limit the authority of departments and agencies to investigate crimes against the United States when investigative jurisdiction has been assigned by law to such departments and agencies.
    since the ATF is under Dept of Justice, just like FBI, the FBI has the same authority, both are GS-1811 investigators.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    well lets clarify this, the FBI has the exact same statutory authority as the ATF. the legal requirements for the 4473s are in the title 18 USC

    the FBI has the authority to enforce any part of 18 USC including the portions involving your records.

    see federal law is
    28 USC 533



    since the ATF is under Dept of Justice, just like FBI, the FBI has the same authority, both are GS-1811 investigators.
    The ATF has specific authority to look at the records without a warrant. I still don't know that the FBI has that exact authority without a warrant. What you posted does not clarify that question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The ATF has specific authority to look at the records without a warrant. I still don't know that the FBI has that exact authority without a warrant. What you posted does not clarify that question.
    A moot point in most cases ... FBI gets warrants as quickly as you get a candy bar.

    FBI = freaking bunch of idiots

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    Yo, genius, it may be moot to you, but it matters in my job.

    Unbelievable, he thinks he knows everything. Bluster and BS. That's all this troll posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Yo, genius, it may be moot to you, but it matters in my job.

    Unbelievable, he thinks he knows everything. Bluster and BS. That's all this troll posts.

    Odd, where's the "moving on" line?

    hahaha ... you need to look up the definition of "troll" ... its you dude.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The ATF has specific authority to look at the records without a warrant. I still don't know that the FBI has that exact authority without a warrant. What you posted does not clarify that question.
    Which section on USC grants that authority? I would like to review the wording of that statute....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Which section on USC grants that authority? I would like to review the wording of that statute....
    I don't know. My knowledge comes from the EOP that tells me how to do my job. If the ATF initiates a trace (no warrant needed), I am required to comply. The EOP says nothing about the FBI. Since the EOP was vetted by the general counsel, I assume that he has verified that the ATF has that authority, but I cannot tell you where that particular lawyer, who set the procedures I must follow to remain legal, found the ATF's authority.

    I can tell you that those records are considered to "belong" to the ATF, even though they are in my custody. They do not belong to the FBI.


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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't know. My knowledge comes from the EOP that tells me how to do my job. If the ATF initiates a trace (no warrant needed), I am required to comply. The EOP says nothing about the FBI. Since the EOP was vetted by the general counsel, I assume that he has verified that the ATF has that authority, but I cannot tell you where that particular lawyer, who set the procedures I must follow to remain legal, found the ATF's authority.

    I can tell you that those records are considered to "belong" to the ATF, even though they are in my custody. They do not belong to the FBI.


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    What would you have done if you told the agents off and then 5 minutes later they came back and informed you a federal judge had approved seizing the records?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    What would you have done if you told the agents off and then 5 minutes later they came back and informed you a federal judge had approved seizing the records?
    First, I would not tell the agents off. I would ask for their authority. If they produced a warrant that named our records, I would not stand in the way, but would notify the appropriate management of what happened. If they presented no authority, I would not turn over the records, but would contact the appropriate management first, who would then contact the general counsel's office for how to proceed.

    If they left and came back in five minutes with a warrant (I assume that is what you mean by "federal judge has approved"), then I would not stand in the way of their exercising that warrant. That would likely be a crime.


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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    First, I would not tell the agents off. I would ask for their authority. If they produced a warrant that named our records, I would not stand in the way, but would notify the appropriate management of what happened. If they presented no authority, I would not turn over the records, but would contact the appropriate management first, who would then contact the general counsel's office for how to proceed.

    If they left and came back in five minutes with a warrant (I assume that is what you mean by "federal judge has approved"), then I would not stand in the way of their exercising that warrant. That would likely be a crime.


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    Depending upon how much of a hurry they're in they may not have a physical warrant, I do believe the FBI can just start seizing if a federal judge tells them over the telephone the warrant will be signed, they don't need to physically have a paper warrant in hand
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Depending upon how much of a hurry they're in they may not have a physical warrant, I do believe the FBI can just start seizing if a federal judge tells them over the telephone the warrant will be signed, they don't need to physically have a paper warrant in hand
    They do need it to get my cooperation. Without the piece of paper, I can't know that they have the authority that they claim and cannot be held responsible for not assisting them in what, for all I know, is a crime. I ain't opening that vault without proper authority being presented.

    Yes, vault, much like you'd find in a bank.


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