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Thread: PNC Bank - bad experience this morning

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    PNC Bank - bad experience this morning

    This morning I went in to my local PNC branch (where I have OCed MANY times before without incident), filled out my paperwork, and as I turned to go to the teller line, the unarmed security guard said "Sir, we ask that you leave your firearm in your car".

    I said that I'd like to speak to the manager, wherein he led me to the manager's office, and she repeated the request. I said that it looked like we needed to speak to upper management about this because it isn't the first time the subject has come up. She informed me that she WAS upper management, and I said No, corporate. She then acknowledged that what I was doing was legal, and that she couldn't stop me, but that she felt I was putting her people at risk if a bad guy came in. We talked a bit more, told me she had worked in Florida at the time of the "incident" (I knew what she was talking about, but can't remember the details), told me her husband was a Federal law enforcement officer, and she had even asked HIM not to come into her branch visibly armed! We chatted a bit more, and concluded the conversation with the guard thanking me for talking with them!

    I then went get in the line for a teller, a teller called me over, and as I was telling her that I didn't know my account number she kept glancing with big eyes at my gun. I concluded my business with her, picked up the manager's card, and left.

    Does anyone have a recent name, phone number or other contact info far up the management chain? If so, please PM me as I believe the ToS disallows public posting of such things. If anyone has suggestions for what I send to whomever I talk to, please post them here.

    I will be leaving town for a few days, so if I don't respond to posts here or PMs that's why.

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    Wow. The paychecks just came in this morning and I'll have to go to PNC either today or tomorrow.

    The last two times I OCed while transacting. Nothing was said.
    But there was no guard on duty. I rarely see a guard there. The last time was just after they were held up.

    The tellers know me by face or even name so I don't know that makes a difference.
    I have to wonder if the guard had said nothing if anyone would have even noticed.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    I forgot two other pieces of information:

    1) The manager said she knew I had a CHL (how, I don't know) and was legal to carry, though I informed her that even without a CHL I could legally carry openly

    2) I nearly didn't OC into the bank this morning, but decided to at the last minute

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    Why do banks think that armed customers will draw their guns in response to a simple robbery? It's only money. I don't know of a single person who would draw in that situation.

    Now, if the BG initiates shooting, that's a different story; now it's a matter of self-defense. I may return fire--IF I deem that to be my best course of action.

    BTW, does anyone know of any instances where a customer used his firearm during a robbery where someone else had not initiated the shooting? I sure as hell don't.

    I do know that the police have convinced Wright-Patt Credit Union that armed customers will increase the chance of shots being fired.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Why do banks think that armed customers will draw their guns in response to a simple robbery? It's only money. I don't know of a single person who would draw in that situation.

    Now, if the BG initiates shooting, that's a different story; now it's a matter of self-defense. I may return fire--IF I deem that to be my best course of action.

    BTW, does anyone know of any instances where a customer used his firearm during a robbery where someone else had not initiated the shooting? I sure as hell don't.

    I do know that the police have convinced Wright-Patt Credit Union that armed customers will increase the chance of shots being fired.
    becasue robbery is not only about money, but the threat of serious physical harm if the robbers demands are not met. if somebody pulls a gun to rob I wouldn't just be "oh this is a simple robbery no big deal" by using a weapon to commit a robbery the robber has implied that they're willing to kill the person robbed over whatever trinkets they think they can get. I'm certainly not trusting my life to an armed robber, if I can safely do so I'll draw my gun.

    of course you're free to do whatever you want if the robber turns around from the teller and decides on the fly he doesn't want witnesses and kills you because you're not ready to react I guess that's your problem...
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Why do banks think that armed customers will draw their guns in response to a simple robbery? It's only money. I don't know of a single person who would draw in that situation.

    Now, if the BG initiates shooting, that's a different story; now it's a matter of self-defense. I may return fire--IF I deem that to be my best course of action.

    BTW, does anyone know of any instances where a customer used his firearm during a robbery where someone else had not initiated the shooting? I sure as hell don't.

    I do know that the police have convinced Wright-Patt Credit Union that armed customers will increase the chance of shots being fired.
    Can you clarify further what you mean by "simple robbery"? For instance, what if a BG is pointing a gun at a teller and telling them to hand over the money? One could theorize that the BG may decide to pull the trigger if he doesn't get what he wants fast enough or at his whim. Going on that assumption, one could theorize that a OCing bystander could in some situations be justified in opening fire on the BG in order to save the life of the teller. Obviously, there are lots of variables here which make the discussion of hypothetical situations limited in value. But I wanted to understand your thinking on this "simple robbery" terminology better.
    Last edited by independence; 09-25-2013 at 12:23 PM. Reason: minor edit

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    When I get home from work I can provide you with an email address of someone way up the food chain. I actually emailed the president of PNC about a "no guns" sign put up by a rogue branch and he had it taken down a couple days later.

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    I dunno .. maybe some robbers don't like witnesses ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT48 View Post
    When I get home from work I can provide you with an email address of someone way up the food chain. I actually emailed the president of PNC about a "no guns" sign put up by a rogue branch and he had it taken down a couple days later.
    Excellent, thanks! I look forward to it.

    When I get back in town I'll check to see if he still works there, then follow up with an e-mail.

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    This is as bad as the the gun-grab or take-OCer-out-first myths. Hardly any bank robberies result in gunfire. I don't know of a single one.

    Bank workers are trained to comply 100% with demands of robbers. My wife was robbed once. He was armed, but did not show the firearm. His demands
    were met, he left, and was picked up within thirty minutes. This is how almost all bank robberies go down. THAT is a simple robbery--almost all of them.

    It would take a LOT to convince me that I needed to use my firearm.

    The worst part is that the kind of talk I just witnessed in this thread is exactly why some banks try to deny carry. They are afraid the carriers will be cowboys. I just heard some cowboy language loud and clear. What a pity.

    Moving on.


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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Why do banks think that armed customers will draw their guns in response to a simple robbery? It's only money. I don't know of a single person who would draw in that situation.

    Now, if the BG initiates shooting, that's a different story; now it's a matter of self-defense. I may return fire--IF I deem that to be my best course of action.

    BTW, does anyone know of any instances where a customer used his firearm during a robbery where someone else had not initiated the shooting? I sure as hell don't.

    I do know that the police have convinced Wright-Patt Credit Union that armed customers will increase the chance of shots being fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    Can you clarify further what you mean by "simple robbery"? For instance, what if a BG is pointing a gun at a teller and telling them to hand over the money? One could theorize that the BG may decide to pull the trigger if he doesn't get what he wants fast enough or at his whim. Going on that assumption, one could theorize that a OCing bystander could in some situations be justified in opening fire on the BG in order to save the life of the teller. Obviously, there are lots of variables here which make the discussion of hypothetical situations limited in value. But I wanted to understand your thinking on this "simple robbery" terminology better.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    This is as bad as the the gun-grab or take-OCer-out-first myths. Hardly any bank robberies result in gunfire. I don't know of a single one.

    Bank workers are trained to comply 100% with demands of robbers. My wife was robbed once. He was armed, but did not show the firearm. His demands
    were met, he left, and was picked up within thirty minutes. This is how almost all bank robberies go down. THAT is a simple robbery--almost all of them.

    It would take a LOT to convince me that I needed to use my firearm.

    The worst part is that the kind of talk I just witnessed in this thread is exactly why some banks try to deny carry. They are afraid the carriers will be cowboys. I just heard some cowboy language loud and clear. What a pity.

    Moving on.

    <o>
    I'm new to this and would like to understand your perspective better, so it'd be great if you'd be willing to stick around just a bit for my sake, as I expect I may learn something from you. That is, if you don't jump ship because you assumed I was disagreeing with you when in fact, I was just asking a question to understand your position better.

    What I would like to understand, is where you would draw the line. Here are 3 hypothetical situations:

    1. The BG does a silent robbery, by passing a note and the OCer only suspects something to be up but doesn't know for sure
    2. The OCer hears the BG verbalize that he is robbing the place and also hears him claim to be armed, but the BG does not draw the weapon from supposed concealment
    3. The BG draws a weapon and points it at a teller and tells them to hand over the money

    I'm assuming that you would not be in favor of an OCer drawing in situations 1 and 2. Tell me about 3. I would like to understand your reasoning so I can evaluate new perspectives. That's one of my main reasons for coming to this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Excellent, thanks! I look forward to it.

    When I get back in town I'll check to see if he still works there, then follow up with an e-mail.
    PM sent. (I think. My Sent Items folder is empty so I'm not totally sure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    I'm new to this and would like to understand your perspective better, so it'd be great if you'd be willing to stick around just a bit for my sake, as I expect I may learn something from you. That is, if you don't jump ship because you assumed I was disagreeing with you when in fact, I was just asking a question to understand your position better.

    What I would like to understand, is where you would draw the line. Here are 3 hypothetical situations:

    1. The BG does a silent robbery, by passing a note and the OCer only suspects something to be up but doesn't know for sure
    2. The OCer hears the BG verbalize that he is robbing the place and also hears him claim to be armed, but the BG does not draw the weapon from supposed concealment
    3. The BG draws a weapon and points it at a teller and tells them to hand over the money

    I'm assuming that you would not be in favor of an OCer drawing in situations 1 and 2. Tell me about 3. I would like to understand your reasoning so I can evaluate new perspectives. That's one of my main reasons for coming to this forum.
    Wow. I like how you responded. It looks like I jumped to a conclusion. For that, I am sorry.

    Anyway, without further information, just based on the detail in the scenarios you have laid out, I would not draw. Depending on my position, I would either turn strong side away from the robber (if I am close, I don't want to motivate him to get any stupider than having drawn), and (if I can do so without drawing attention) I will put my hand on my firearm and deactivate retention, or I would immediately move to cover and concealment. Most robbers, even if the brandish, will not shoot. I don't want any actions I take to cause the shooting to start. The teller has been trained and tested. He or she knows exactly what to do to get the robber and his gun out the door. And that is the goal, getting him out.

    The only way I'd draw is if I intended to shoot. That will only happen if the shooting has started or I am absolutely it is imminent. In that case, my priorities are (1) protecting my family members, (2) protecting me, (3) protecting friends, and (4) protecting other innocents. In fact, (4) is so far down on the list, I will only do (4) if I can do so at zero further risk to (1), (2), and (3). I am not a policeman, and I feel no duty to risk me and mine for others. I may choose to do so, but that is my choice.

    I hope no other carriers in a bank during a robbery feel the need to be proactive. Let the bank handle it. They know what they are doing. Draw and fire ONLY if the shooting has already started of you are 100% sure (I don't know how you could be) that shooting is imminent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    This is as bad as the the gun-grab or take-OCer-out-first myths. Hardly any bank robberies result in gunfire. I don't know of a single one.

    Bank workers are trained to comply 100% with demands of robbers. My wife was robbed once. He was armed, but did not show the firearm. His demands
    were met, he left, and was picked up within thirty minutes. This is how almost all bank robberies go down. THAT is a simple robbery--almost all of them.

    It would take a LOT to convince me that I needed to use my firearm.

    The worst part is that the kind of talk I just witnessed in this thread is exactly why some banks try to deny carry. They are afraid the carriers will be cowboys. I just heard some cowboy language loud and clear. What a pity.

    Moving on.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    Erie Community Credit Union was robbed at gun point at there Huron branch. One of the robber's shot there shotgun off inside the bank. Now you know of one.

    After they where robbed they decided to take down there gun-buster signs and let there members carry. If my credit union does not change it's no gun policy at tomorrows board meeting I will be taking my business to ECFCU.

    http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/24743

    If you Google it there are many examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    BTW, does anyone know of any instances where a customer used his firearm during a robbery where someone else had not initiated the shooting? I sure as hell don't.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CJp9BPHMOo

    Now this was not a bank it was a internet cafe and the BG's were robbing the customers but had not yet got to the guy with the gun, yet he took matters into his own hands and wasn't charged with anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    This is as bad as the the gun-grab or take-OCer-out-first myths. Hardly any bank robberies result in gunfire. I don't know of a single one.
    Bank workers are trained to comply 100% with demands of robbers. My wife was robbed once. He was armed, but did not show the firearm. His demands
    were met, he left, and was picked up within thirty minutes. This is how almost all bank robberies go down. THAT is a simple robbery--almost all of them.

    It would take a LOT to convince me that I needed to use my firearm.

    The worst part is that the kind of talk I just witnessed in this thread is exactly why some banks try to deny carry. They are afraid the carriers will be cowboys. I just heard some cowboy language loud and clear. What a pity.

    Moving on.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    Companies don't like to release that information to the media, the only reason why you see some on the news is because some one that might have been involved called the media themselves to try to get some $$ for the story. Robbers open fire more often that people think in a robbery situation. In my experience, in armed robberies, a firearm is discharged in 60-70% of the time. I will say though that probably 80% of those are accidental/neg discharges (have their finger on trigger with all that adrenaline).

    If some one is robbing a place with a firearm where I am, there is a chance I might get shot... I'm not taking that chance. The thought "if I do/give them what they want, they will leave me alone" just isn't realistic. Always assume they will shoot someone. I've seen too many incidents where they shoot the person after they give them everything they have just as they are leaving... for no reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy bilt View Post
    Erie Community Credit Union was robbed at gun point at there Huron branch. One of the robber's shot there shotgun off inside the bank. Now you know of one.

    After they where robbed they decided to take down there gun-buster signs and let there members carry. If my credit union does not change it's no gun policy at tomorrows board meeting I will be taking my business to ECFCU.

    http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/24743

    If you Google it there are many examples.
    No doubt, you can come up with examples, but they are RARE. In the overwhelming majority of bank robberies, even the armed robberies, no shots are fired. NONE. Banks know how to deal with robberies to avoid the gunfire. Yeah, though, every once in a while, there's going to be an idiot. Once in a GREAT while--and mostly, I'm sure, out of negligence, and not out of any intent to fire.

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    A Domino's Pizza manager was shot during an armed robbery late Saturday night.
    Mansfield Police say Patrick Osborne, 42, of Cardington, was shot four times, once in the right chest, once in the right shoulder and twice in the neck, after two armed men robbed the Domino's Pizza shop at 523 S. Main St. before 11:30 p.m.
    Osborne was taken to MedCentral Mansfield Hospital and then flown by medical helicopter to Grant Medical Center in Columbus.
    Police say Osborne was alone in the store because all of the drivers were out making deliveries.
    Police say Osborne described the suspects as very tall and wearing ski masks. One of the men was wearing a black jacket and the other was wearing a tan jacket.
    Police are still investigating what type of gun was used during the robbery an how much money was taken.

    This is a co worker of mine, after he gave them the money in the drawer, opened the safe (which is a 15 delay safe) they forced him into a freezer and shot him and left him to die. I worked for domino's for 3 years as a driver and manager and was robber 3 times, twice at knife point( got stabbed after i turned over the money to one of them) and once at gun point in the store. After i gave the robber with the gun the money he went to leave the store when he got to the door he turned and took a shot at me missing my head by less them a foot and hitting the wall behind me.
    If someone pulls a gun during a robbery i assume they follow the same rule as i do. YOU DON'T PULL A GUN UNLESS YOU PLAN TO SHOT IT. AND YOU DON'T SHOT A GUN UNLESS YOU PLAN ON KILLING SOMEONE.
    Just my 2 cents.
    "A free people ought to be armed."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm760 View Post
    Companies don't like to release that information to the media, the only reason why you see some on the news is because some one that might have been involved called the media themselves to try to get some $$ for the story. Robbers open fire more often that people think in a robbery situation. In my experience, in armed robberies, a firearm is discharged in 60-70% of the time. I will say though that probably 80% of those are accidental/neg discharges (have their finger on trigger with all that adrenaline).

    If some one is robbing a place with a firearm where I am, there is a chance I might get shot... I'm not taking that chance. The thought "if I do/give them what they want, they will leave me alone" just isn't realistic. Always assume they will shoot someone. I've seen too many incidents where they shoot the person after they give them everything they have just as they are leaving... for no reason.
    Bull. If shots are fired, the bank can't hide that information. It will be a matter of public record and will make it to the media. Every time.

    Your assumption is a cowboy assumption. I don't want to be anywhere near you when you are armed. Thanks for the heads up.

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    rast1971: I am talking about BANK robberies. Shots are almost never fired in BANK robberies.

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    In 2011, the year I found first, there were 5086 bank robberies. 70 times shots were fired. ZERO customers, employees, and employee family were killed. ZERO.

    Who was killed? Thirteen people. Ten perps, two cops, and one guard. These are the people with the guns, clearly shooting at each other. Lesson: Don't start the shooting, and, almost certainly, no one will be killed. Let the guy leave the bank.

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Wow. I like how you responded. It looks like I jumped to a conclusion. For that, I am sorry.

    Anyway, without further information, just based on the detail in the scenarios you have laid out, I would not draw. Depending on my position, I would either turn strong side away from the robber (if I am close, I don't want to motivate him to get any stupider than having drawn), and (if I can do so without drawing attention) I will put my hand on my firearm and deactivate retention, or I would immediately move to cover and concealment. Most robbers, even if the brandish, will not shoot. I don't want any actions I take to cause the shooting to start. The teller has been trained and tested. He or she knows exactly what to do to get the robber and his gun out the door. And that is the goal, getting him out.

    The only way I'd draw is if I intended to shoot. That will only happen if the shooting has started or I am absolutely it is imminent. In that case, my priorities are (1) protecting my family members, (2) protecting me, (3) protecting friends, and (4) protecting other innocents. In fact, (4) is so far down on the list, I will only do (4) if I can do so at zero further risk to (1), (2), and (3). I am not a policeman, and I feel no duty to risk me and mine for others. I may choose to do so, but that is my choice.

    I hope no other carriers in a bank during a robbery feel the need to be proactive. Let the bank handle it. They know what they are doing. Draw and fire ONLY if the shooting has already started of you are 100% sure (I don't know how you could be) that shooting is imminent.
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    In 2011, the year I found first, there were 5086 bank robberies. 70 times shots were fired. ZERO customers, employees, and employee family were killed. ZERO.

    Who was killed? Thirteen people. Ten perps, two cops, and one guard. These are the people with the guns, clearly shooting at each other. Lesson: Don't start the shooting, and, almost certainly, no one will be killed. Let the guy leave the bank.
    No worries. Thanks for your response. Interesting points. Going to have to think this over and do some research on my own before I develop an opinion. My gut says that if a BG has a gun pointed at a teller then that teller's life is in immediate danger and the OCer would in many cases be doing best to shoot the BG. But I see where you are coming from as far as banks. Maybe in some cases not interfering would, in fact, be best. One thing that would be helpful is if you have a link to the 2011 study you referenced...?

    I thought it was interesting when you mentioned turning your strong side away from the BG so that he can't see your holstered firearm. I have been thinking lately on the pros and cons of OC vs. CC. Seems to me that each has their benefits and downsides. In this case, it sounds like you feel it would be to your benefit for the BG not to notice that you are carrying, at least once the holdup is underway.

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    Before he has pulled his gun, OC is a deterrent. Once he has pulled it, deterrence is moot and the sight of a firearm could motivate undesirable action on his part.

    I will post the link the next time I am on the computer where I found it. It is just the FBI bank robbery statistics.


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    My gut says that if a BG has a gun pointed at a teller then that teller's life is in immediate danger and the OCer would in many cases be doing best to shoot the BG.
    If he's talking/robbing the teller that hints the GG is behind them.
    Are you saying shoot him in the back?
    And if your shots lead the BG into shooting and hitting others?
    I don't know. I'm just saying.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkent View Post
    If he's talking/robbing the teller that hints the GG is behind them.
    Are you saying shoot him in the back?
    And if your shots lead the BG into shooting and hitting others?
    I don't know. I'm just saying.
    I guess I was imagining being to the side of the BG, or moving to the side of the BG. That's the problem with hypothetical scenarios. There are often too many variables in the real world to really be able to say how one would react ahead of time.

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