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Comments needed: Article by Gun Grabber Ken Plum, Delegate from Fairfax County

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
I'm unimpressed. There's no other way you could cite such a thing, which effectively means there's no way to cite it whatsoever.

I submit that A: if your standard for "fact" depends on a citation, you must be ignorant of virtually everything except law, and B: if you're content to ignore my lengthy explanation above (tldr?) and place misguided emphasis on my (somewhat intentionally hyperbolic) use of the word "fact" – which is of no consequence whatever – that you're likely letting your political biases dictate your outlook and conclusions but, speaking from a position of pure ignorance, have no better approach than to attack my phraseology, rather than the content.

I also submit that whatever you're thinking but not saying is dead wrong.

Fact: the sky is blue, grass is green. Shall I provide a citation for this, too? Are you going to let the exceptions distort your view of the obvious truth?

The bottom line is that you presented a statement as 'Fact', and when called on it, you can't back your statement up with any data that substantiates your claim. Period. The only thing you have to offer is personal opinion... which certainly has some value... but its not 'Fact'.

To quote Eye.... 'Moving on..'
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
The bottom line is that you presented a statement as 'Fact', and when called on it, you can't back your statement up with any data that substantiates your claim. Period. The only thing you have to offer is personal opinion... which certainly has some value... but its not 'Fact'.

To quote Eye.... 'Moving on..'

I validate everything that Marshaul opined about. I have openly carried in NoVA for the last three years and have not once been negatively confronted by anyone. Most people here are completely oblivious to the fact that I am carrying and if there is any comment at all, it has to do with what I am carrying compared to what they carry.

So now you have two opinions and no cite.

Can you provide a cite that most NoVA citizens are *anti* gun rights or carry? Or is that just *your* opinion?
 

Tess

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
3,837
Location
Bryan, TX
I validate everything that Marshaul opined about. I have openly carried in NoVA for the last three years and have not once been negatively confronted by anyone. Most people here are completely oblivious to the fact that I am carrying and if there is any comment at all, it has to do with what I am carrying compared to what they carry.

So now you have two opinions and no cite.

Can you provide a cite that most NoVA citizens are *anti* gun rights or carry? Or is that just *your* opinion?


I'm with you gents who carry in NoVA and don't get hassled.

HOWEVER, the statistics of who Northern Virginians send as "representatives" says a crap-ton about issues. And this year, many of the "representatives" are putting their anti-gun planks much higher on their platforms than they have in previous years; money must be coming in from the Bloomberg and Soros camps.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
I'm with you gents who carry in NoVA and don't get hassled.

HOWEVER, the statistics of who Northern Virginians send as "representatives" says a crap-ton about issues. And this year, many of the "representatives" are putting their anti-gun planks much higher on their platforms than they have in previous years; money must be coming in from the Bloomberg and Soros camps.

I caution you not to conflate the positions of the elected representatives with the things that are important to the people who voted to elect them. So many people are single-issue voters or party voters that even absolute morons such as Moran get reelected. "Vote for me because I am pro-abortion ... or help me defeat the "war on women" ... or to allow illegal immigrants amnesty ... or to enact 'common sense' gun control laws ... or because I'm a Democrat ... etc." Just because more voters in some districts keep electing these political opportunists to office does not mean that those voters agree with everything that rep does.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
I validate everything that Marshaul opined about. I have openly carried in NoVA for the last three years and have not once been negatively confronted by anyone. Most people here are completely oblivious to the fact that I am carrying and if there is any comment at all, it has to do with what I am carrying compared to what they carry.

So now you have two opinions and no cite.

Can you provide a cite that most NoVA citizens are *anti* gun rights or carry? Or is that just *your* opinion?


I never stated my opinion was "Fact".... thus the difference.
 

POPS VA

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
94
Location
King George VA
I'm not gonna provide a cite, and I don't have any polls for you (my disdain for such things has been voiced around here before...)

I grew up in Northern Virginia, however.

Let me preface this by pointing out that it's easy for pollsters to ask loaded questions such as 'do you support reasonable X control?" and elicit answers that, like the questions, don't really have anything to do with actual legislation that might actually be passed.

Unfortunately, the same thing happens with politics as well, with the – quite evident, I should say – result that government really doesn't represent the people. It, at best, offers at regular intervals a "lesser of two evils" contest – one which is either about no real issue at all, or is "about" largely imagined, exaggerated, and irrelevant "issues".

Anyway, "even" with the large immigrant population, I am surprised when I encounter someone expressing anti-gun sentiment. Many people, it's true, genuinely don't care at all, one way or the other. But I have spent (and continue to spend) a lot of time in NoVA. I can literally count the number of times I have received or encountered anti-gun sentiment amongst Virginias, "new" or old. Has it happened? Sure.

Specifically, I have open carried a lot in NoVA, for many years now. (A lot of interesting times, interesting places, to say the least.) Now, maybe it's because I have long hair, a beard, and am obviously not a cop, or a wannabe, or pretty much anything else – just me! – but the overwhelming response or sentiment I receive (if any at all) is "cool!" or "right on!" or "I didn't know I could do that!". And this is from people of all walks of life – any subculture, or economic status, or national background or race you can imagine (and, yes, even including Democrats). Amongst my friends from NoVA, virtually all are what I would describe as "quite pro gun", and they're as subculturally diverse a bunch as the rest.

Most folks in NoVA aren't anti-gun. Most folks, if they weren't presented with a false "lesser of two evils, but we're still gonna [strike]stick it somewhere[/strike] ban or overlegislate something" dilemma, don't particularly desire gun control more than they desire ridiculous drug (but only a few) control, pointless and archaic ABC laws, grossly overinflated taxes coming from a hundred different places, or ridiculously low speed limits (with the state profiting yet again at their expense). These things are imposed on them, with a mockery of their "consent", over the constant extortionist threat of even greater vile encroachments on their attempts to simply live their lives without interference.

I believe that without a shadow of a doubt. And this is why open carry, and the resulting normalization of real, meaningful and useful gun rights that eveyone can appreciate, is so crucial. (Also why I tease CCers so relentlessly. Come on folks! Open carry really works, and you can do it, too. :p)

(And it's why I relentlessly vote libertarian. :))

Your statement is clear and reasonable, in fact I agree with most of what you say. I too grew up in NoVA, I am now in my 60s and have seen vast changes in the demographics and the politics. I still do a lot of work in Prince William and Fairfax counties and like you, I open carry up there all the time with only a rare stink eye. I believe, as do you, most people don t even notice an OCer. But I can easily see that the political landscape has changed as urban sprawl has run it s course. To be fair, all of my friends up there are decidedly pro gun, but I tend to hang around with older folks who share my views, so that is hardly a basis for me to say NoVA is pro gun. My original statement that NoVA was anti gun is solely based on the electorate up there and who they send to the Statehouse and to Washington. I have no cite or poll or anything to support my opinion, it s just my opinion.....so I guess we are even.:p
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I don't believe that the issue is that there are more democrats, or that democrats (the voters, not the politicians) have even necessarily become more anti-gun, or what have you.

The issue is the way the lesser-of-two evils has culminated in a situation where each side froths at the mount when they vitriolically describe the evil of the other side. There is so much hatred and clannishness in politics on both sides (all of it wholly artificial) that folks can't even see the evils their side will perpetrate, only those of the other side.

Most democrats don't care about gun control any more than most republicans care about gays getting married. The two parties keep the animosity fueled alive by specifically focusing on these issues. It doesn't matter that few Republicans care about gay marriage; the party attacks and therefore must be opposed. Similarly, it doesn't matter that few democrats really care about gun control; the party attacks it and therefore must be opposed.

And so many Republicans sit on their high horse of rectitude, cracking inane (stupid, frankly) jokes about democrats, totally oblivious to the nearly complete parallels on the other side (the "jokes" democrats crack are basically exactly the same). I see it around here all the time.

My opinion: the people are not our enemy. Immigrant, native, democrat, republican, whatever. The parties are our enemy, and as long as we focus on the people (those dirty carpetbagging NoVAns!) and not the system, we're playing right into their hands and perpetrating the status quo.

Vote libertarian! (At this point I think I've convinced more former democrats than former republicans. Stew on that for awhile.)
 

POPS VA

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
94
Location
King George VA
I don't believe that the issue is that there are more democrats, or that democrats (the voters, not the politicians) have even necessarily become more anti-gun, or what have you.

The issue is the way the lesser-of-two evils has culminated in a situation where each side froths at the mount when they vitriolically describe the evil of the other side. There is so much hatred and clannishness in politics on both sides (all of it wholly artificial) that folks can't even see the evils their side will perpetrate, only those of the other side.

Most democrats don't care about gun control any more than most republicans care about gays getting married. The two parties keep the animosity fueled alive by specifically focusing on these issues. It doesn't matter that few Republicans care about gay marriage; the party attacks and therefore must be opposed. Similarly, it doesn't matter that few democrats really care about gun control; the party attacks it and therefore must be opposed.

And so many Republicans sit on their high horse of rectitude, cracking inane (stupid, frankly) jokes about democrats, totally oblivious to the nearly complete parallels on the other side (the "jokes" democrats crack are basically exactly the same). I see it around here all the time.

My opinion: the people are not our enemy. Immigrant, native, democrat, republican, whatever. The parties are our enemy, and as long as we focus on the people (those dirty carpetbagging NoVAns!) and not the system, we're playing right into their hands and perpetrating the status quo.

Vote libertarian! (At this point I think I've convinced more former democrats than former republicans. Stew on that for awhile.)

Stew on what? You seem to have labeled me as attatched to a political party. I will simplify it for you, I am against progressiveism and we have that in both parties, it is the socialist agenda that berates both parties, in my view. FWIW I am a constitutionalist. I believe that the founders had a very clear vision of how this republic should opperate, the Constitution is clear and written in a way that a farmer with minimal education could understand. The bigger problem is that civics is no longer taught in our public school system, so the teachers unions now control our future leaders, do you think with common core there might be an agenda there? Brother, I think we are closer in our beliefs than you might think. I hate "the lesser of two evils" that we, the electoate, have to deal with, but it is what it has become. I am an independant an no one will put a ring in my nose and lead me on a leash. I think you are cut from the same bolt of cloth. Having said that, I don't give a crap about gays being married, or Roe v Wade, or what legislation is the flavor of the day, I support the Constitution (as written) and will defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic, what say you sir?:question:
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
That parenthetical comment wasn't directed at you. It was a reference to a recent discussion wherein it was repeatedly claimed that voting libertarian "steals elections" from the GOP. Kind of hard to make that claim when as many democrats are defecting.
 

POPS VA

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
94
Location
King George VA
That parenthetical comment wasn't directed at you. It was a reference to a recent discussion wherein it was repeatedly claimed that voting libertarian "steals elections" from the GOP. Kind of hard to make that claim when as many democrats are defecting.

Fair enough. I have to vote, it is my constitutional duty. Sad to say, that a vote of concious (sp) will put an evil repub or dem in office, even if I don't vote for the the staus quo. Sad. But I will vote against socialism EVERY time, and I believe you will too.Thanks for the sporty reparte'
 
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