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Thread: Oct 1st law change

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    Oct 1st law change

    I have been reading about the new concealed carry laws allowing carry into bars, restaurants which is exciting. What I don't understand how this impacts OC? I could be wrong but I'm under the current law OC is illegal in bars but will that be changing as well?

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    The new laws address cc.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Nothing changes regarding OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Nothing changes regarding OC.
    I disagree.

    If you have a CHP, you can OC into a bar. The way I read the law, all it states is that you have to have a CHP. No mention on mode of carry. There are a couple restrictions in the law where it specifically states CC, but not with regards to bars.
    Last edited by gary737; 09-27-2013 at 11:50 AM.

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    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    I disagree.

    If you have a CHP, you can OC into a bar. The way I read the law, all it states is that you have to have a CHP. No mention on mode of carry. There are a couple restrictions in the law where it specifically states CC, but not with regards to bars.
    This is how I read the law also, it is funerals and parades that are now also legal for carry with a CHP but only concealed.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    I disagree.

    If you have a CHP, you can OC into a bar. The way I read the law, all it states is that you have to have a CHP. No mention on mode of carry. There are a couple restrictions in the law where it specifically states CC, but not with regards to bars.
    Ok, well come Tuesday, feel free to test out your interpretation of the law and be a test case.

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    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Ok, well come Tuesday, feel free to test out your interpretation of the law and be a test case.
    Easy enough to read, if it doesn't mention mode of carry then it doesn't restrict it.
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonie View Post
    Easy enough to read, if it doesn't mention mode of carry then it doesn't restrict it.
    You guys aren't looking at the big picture. HB937, as it relates to restaurants, movie theaters, etc is an amendment to NCGS 14-269.3(b) where prior to now it said it was unlawful to carry in those places. The big picture you need to see is 14-269.3(b) is a subsection of NCGS 14.269 which is entitled "Carrying Concealed Weapons". That is the statute that covers concealed weapons specifically, and says its illegal... except in the circumstances listed under 14-269(a1), specifically as it applies to most us us, 14-269(a1)(2). They did not write a complete new statute saying folks could carry in a restaurant, they simply made an amendment saying it didn't apply to those who are "carrying the concealed handgun in accordance with the scope of the concealed handgun permit as set out in G.S. 14-415.11(c)."

    Since the statute that has been amended to allow restaurant carry is a subsection of 14-269, it in fact does specifically apply to concealed carry, not open carry. Again, if you feel your interpretation is solid, feel free to test it out and let us know how it goes for you.
    Last edited by Medic1210; 09-27-2013 at 02:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    You guys aren't looking at the big picture. HB937, as it relates to restaurants, movie theaters, etc is an amendment to NCGS 14-269.3(b) where prior to now it said it was unlawful to carry in those places. The big picture you need to see is 14-269.3(b) is a subsection of NCGS 14.269 which is entitled "Carrying Concealed Weapons". That is the statute that covers concealed weapons specifically, and says its illegal... except in the circumstances listed under 14-269(a1), specifically as it applies to most us us, 14-269(a1)(2). They did not write a complete new statute saying folks could carry in a restaurant, they simply made an amendment saying it didn't apply to those who are "carrying the concealed handgun in accordance with the scope of the concealed handgun permit as set out in G.S. 14-415.11(c)."

    Since the statute that has been amended to allow restaurant carry is a subsection of 14-269, it in fact does specifically apply to concealed carry, not open carry. Again, if you feel your interpretation is solid, feel free to test it out and let us know how it goes for you.
    I think your logic is flawed because if you are considering 14-269.3(b) to only be related to concealed carry since that is 14-269, then it wouldn't be illegal to open carry in those establishments currently would it? Did you really mean that 14-269.1 thru .8 are all related to concealed carry of a firearm only?

    the actual amended statement is:
    SECTION 3. G.S. 14-269.3(b) reads as rewritten:
    (5) A person carrying a handgun if the person has a valid concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter, has a concealed handgun permit considered valid under G.S. 14-415.24, or is exempt from obtaining a permit pursuant to G.S. 14-415.25. This subdivision shall not be construed to permit a person to carry a handgun on any premises where the person in legal possession or control of the premises has posted a conspicuous notice prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun on the premises in accordance with G.S. 14-415.11(c)."

    very different to how the amendedment to parade carry goes:
    G.S. 14-277.2 is amended by adding a new subsection to read:
    "(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to concealed carry of a handgun at a parade or funeral procession by a person with a valid permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter, . . ."

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    Quote Originally Posted by REDFIVE48 View Post
    I think your logic is flawed because if you are considering 14-269.3(b) to only be related to concealed carry since that is 14-269, then it wouldn't be illegal to open carry in those establishments currently would it? Did you really mean that 14-269.1 thru .8 are all related to concealed carry of a firearm only?

    the actual amended statement is:
    SECTION 3. G.S. 14-269.3(b) reads as rewritten:
    (5) A person carrying a handgun if the person has a valid concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter, has a concealed handgun permit considered valid under G.S. 14-415.24, or is exempt from obtaining a permit pursuant to G.S. 14-415.25. This subdivision shall not be construed to permit a person to carry a handgun on any premises where the person in legal possession or control of the premises has posted a conspicuous notice prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun on the premises in accordance with G.S. 14-415.11(c)."
    The very last line of what you quoted should make it clear that it is referring to concealed handguns. Or do you think that means you could still OC since the sign clearly says no concealed handguns?

    Here's a link to a long discussion we had over at NCGO a couple weeks ago. Specifically, there was confusion regarding campus carry and whether or not private colleges could ban folks with CHP from keeping a firearm in their car because two of the three subsections (i)(j)(k) specifically (i) and (j) specifically mention the right of a private institution to post against guns, while (k) makes it sound like none of the above applied to CHP holders.

    Well, to get an official clarification, Representative Jacqueline Schaffer, the primary sponsor of the new bill was asked for clarification. Here is the part regarding that specific question, and her response.

    Quote:
    As the primary sponsor of H937, could you please provide your views on Section 2 regarding firearms on educational property. There has been confusion among gun owners on internet discussion boards about the amendments to 14-269.2. Below are observations and specific questions regarding 14-269.2(k) and its relationship to other laws.


    OPTIONS FOR NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS
    14-269.2(i) and 14-269.2(j) contain statements that the exceptions contained in the subsections are only available if a non-public school "has not specifically prohibited the possession of a handgun pursuant to this subsection." 14-269.2(k) does NOT contain such a statement.
    QUESTION #4
    Is there a particular significance to the fact that (i) and (j) explicitly recognize a non-public school's option to prohibit guns while (k) does not?

    NO
    Sections (i) and (j) were drafted by one person in the Legislative Drafting Division, while section (k) was drafted by another person.
    That is likely the reason concealed handgun isn't specifically mentioned under restaurant carry while it is under parade carry.

    Again, if you feel strongly enough about your interpretation, please feel free to test it out. You may get lucky and not have issues. After all, every news outlet has reported Guns allowed in Bars under new law so much, maybe folks will just assume OC is covered. Then again, you may end up with legal issues. Your call.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Here is a link to a summary written by staff legal analysts and attorneys for the NC General Assembly

    Here is the summary for section 3

    Section 3 authorizes a person with a concealed carry permit to carry a concealed handgun at assemblies where an admission fee is charged and any establishment that serves alcohol unless the person in control of the premises has posted a notice prohibiting carrying a concealed handgun on the premises.
    If folks still want to read it differently, by all means, feel free. It's your money, time, background, etc...

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    This one will be for the courts to decide, I agree with Medic on this. It will be interesting to see where the courts take it, there will be arrests, it is only a matter of time.
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    Also, something to remember if you decide to be a test case... The punishment for violation of 14-415.11 have now been increased in severity. What once would only be an infraction, is now a Class 2 misdemeanor, and what once was a Class 2 is now a Class 1.

    While I'm not sure the penalty for carrying openly would be the same as carrying concealed illegally, it's still something you have to consider.

    By far the most economical route to go would be to email Jacqueline Schaffer directly and ask her.
    Last edited by Medic1210; 09-27-2013 at 08:13 PM.

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    i believe what you will actually see is a proliferation of business doors having signs on them prohibiting any type of carry!

    now you are even worse off then before the statute passed except at parades etc.

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Ok, well come Tuesday, feel free to test out your interpretation of the law and be a test case.
    Once I find a copy of the "North Carolina Firearms Laws" put out by the Attorney General, with the new wording (NOT interpretation) included, I plan on it.
    Last edited by gary737; 09-28-2013 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i believe what you will actually see is a proliferation of business doors having signs on them prohibiting any type of carry!

    now you are even worse off then before the statute passed except at parades etc.

    ipse
    I wouldn't think so.

    There are many threads here where the various business corporate offices have stated that they follow the laws in the state where their restaurants or stores reside.
    Last edited by gary737; 09-28-2013 at 12:02 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    Once I find a copy of the "North Carolina Firearms Laws" put out by the Attorney General, with the new wording (NOT interpretation) included, I plan on it.
    That is funny, I don't care who you are...
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    Once I find a copy of the "North Carolina Firearms Laws" put out by the Attorney General, with the new wording (NOT interpretation) included, I plan on it.
    What do you mean, new wording? The bill that was passed and signed into law is the only wording there is, and it will not change. Anything written or published that is different from the actual bill is an interpretation. To change one word in the bill would require house and senate votes and a new governor signature. In other words, it ain't happening this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i believe what you will actually see is a proliferation of business doors having signs on them prohibiting any type of carry!
    If our somewhat similar experiences here in Ohio are anything to judge by, you may see a bit of what you describe as a knee-jerk, short term effect. I'd guess it won't last long. Keep those "No Guns = No Money" wallet cards at the ready, and be prepared to bring a few business owners up to speed.
    Last edited by Brian D.; 09-28-2013 at 03:43 PM.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    If our somewhat similar experiences here in Ohio are anything to judge by, you may see a bit of what you describe as a knee-jerk, short term effect. I'd guess it won't last long. Keep those "No Guns = No Money" wallet cards at the ready, and be prepared to bring a few business owners up to speed.
    The only problem is, how many folks actually carry those cards? I fear a majority of average gun owners are going to continue eating where they or their family wants, despite a no-gun sign.

    Of course that just means the rest of us have to step up our game and pick up the slack. In other words, don't just give the manager/owner a card one time and never go back. That may be the only one they ever see. If you make it a point to post every place on the local gun forum, and everyone inundates the business with a card on a regular basis, it will make them see that their bottom line just may be affected after all. Just please, remember to represent us well by dressing neatly and being extremely polite with your interaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    What do you mean, new wording? The bill that was passed and signed into law is the only wording there is, and it will not change. Anything written or published that is different from the actual bill is an interpretation. To change one word in the bill would require house and senate votes and a new governor signature. In other words, it ain't happening this year.
    If you go to the NC Attorney Generals website, there you can printout the COMPLETE North Carolina Firearms Laws, not just the changes as in House Bill 937. Currently the website has the laws that does NOT include the recent House Bill 937 changes that take effect on Oct. 1st.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is funny, I don't care who you are...
    I am missing your point. I have a printout of the previous firearms laws prior to HB 937.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    This one will be for the courts to decide, I agree with Medic on this. It will be interesting to see where the courts take it, there will be arrests, it is only a matter of time.
    I lived in PA for 23 years, which is an open carry state. The only requirement to open carry in the city of Philadelphia is that you have to have a current CCP (Conceal Carry Permit). Some Philadelphia police detained OC'ers because they said that you had to conceal carry because of the requirement to have a CCP. I have a copy of the Philadelphia Police Training policy that states that open carry in Philadelphia is allowed with a CCP, but the Democrat Mayor wants to intimidate people so they won't open carry. It went to court after the police kept harassing the same person day after day for open carry even though they stopped and released him several times prior. The court ruled that the police and the city violated this persons rights and were handed a hefty judgement in favor for the individual.
    Last edited by gary737; 09-28-2013 at 07:30 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    ..... They did not write a complete new statute saying folks could carry in a restaurant, they simply made an amendment saying it didn't apply to those who are "carrying the concealed handgun in accordance with the scope of the concealed handgun permit as set out in G.S. 14-415.11(c)."...
    The part in quotes. Where did you get that wording or is that your own wording?
    Last edited by gary737; 09-28-2013 at 07:24 PM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    Once I find a copy of the "North Carolina Firearms Laws" put out by the Attorney General, with the new wording (NOT interpretation) included, I plan on it.
    as was explained at a doj briefing on the 5th of sept, this document was in the works with appropriate changes, but without any ecd provided. my 'guess' it wont be posted on ag's or sheriff assoc site until the first.

    ipse
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