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Thread: Is Open Carry tactically wise?

  1. #1
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    Is Open Carry tactically wise?

    I open carry for mainly two reasons; self defense, and I don't have a CCW as of yet. There is a lot of discussion among all carriers both types, concealed and open. Here is the dilemma I find myself in.

    1. While OC may deter potential attacks, which cannot be certainly known, just speculated and assumed (unless there was a great amount of evidence such as them pulling a weapon, seeing a gun on you and running without you even drawing). It may also make you the first target. In any situation, open or concealed, once you draw your gun, you are making yourself the target of the bad guys fire, especially in a store scenario. That goes for both open and concealed. However, a lot of robberies in stores happen once the bad guy approaches the counter for instance. Say he's standing behind you with his buddy. He sees a chance to go ahead and get rid of the threat, and shoots you before you even realize what is going on.

    To me, it seems that a conceal carried fire arm doesn't make you the 'target' as quickly as an open carried fire arm does in any situation unless the bad guy knows you are concealing. What do you guys think of this? Remember, I open carry, and I love it. It's comfortable too, and I too have speculated on certain peoples intent. Such as eve last night when a car of 4 men pulled up behind me while I pumped gas, saw my gun, and sped off. I don't assume that I was going to be a potential target, as I still utilize a military style medium fade haircut, and wear nice clothing. As well all know as open carries, the first thought of most people is "He is a cop!", so it could be that a lot of these people may be in possession of drugs or something as simple as expired tags and they suspect a warrant.

    2. On the other hand, what an OC'd firearm can do is keep you from being a potential victim, but giving the illusion that you are not armed. People assuming you are a cop is a good thing. Tricking someone into engaging you while you are armed almost forces you to act, which no one actually wants to do if it can be avoided. To me, conceal carry has the element of surprise, the focus can and will most likely shift to other victims in the area, giving you time to draw and fire before maybe even they realize they are shot. But again, you can be in a one on one situation where you will be given no choice, and maybe in the case of open carry, simply having it would cause the bad guys to just 'skip' you in an attack and leave.

    But anyways, what do you guys think? Does OC show your cards? Is it viable for self defense?
    Last edited by Infantryman; 09-29-2013 at 12:03 PM.

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    Ah yes, all the usual old arguments, nothing new here.

    Start reading: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    Ah yes, all the usual old arguments, nothing new here.

    Start reading: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html
    I didn't make an argument. Overall I asked a question that I've never really engaged in conversation with. In order to obtain information and possibly educated opinion.

    Edit: Also, I clearly lined out my concern for concealing a firearm, meaning I am torn between the two. If this is going to turn into a flame war defending something I didn't attack, I'd rather not be apart of it.
    Last edited by Infantryman; 09-29-2013 at 12:46 PM.

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    I believe both open and concealed carry are definitely viable for self defense. At least for me, it depends on the situation whether I'll concealed carry or open carry. Generally, if I'm going to be in a highly trafficked area (mall, store, movies, etc) where I'll be in close contact with many individuals, I don't want to telegraph anything to anyone. If a shady situation develops I want to be able to have the options open to either get the hell outta Dodge, or, if the situation warrants, move to a tactically superior location and escalate force to neutralize the offender. I feel that were I to be OCing in that situation, they would likely perceive my visible firearm as an escalation of force, regardless of whether I'd made a move to draw or not. This could be bad news if they decide to start hurling lead at me with innocents behind them. Makes it a legally precarious situation if I am forced to engage. Also, I think it leaves me somewhat vulnerable to somebody, either innocent or otherwise, grabbing the firearm from my holster with that many people packed together. That's a lot of hands to keep an eye on.

    However if I'm on my/family's/friends land or moving about in rural areas (mountains, desert, forest, etc.) I'm a lot more likely to run into aggressive wildlife. That wildlife wouldn't comprehend the black thing on my hip as a threat and it would be tactically wise to minimize the time it would take to get my weapon on-target and into action, ere-go I'd OC.

    That being said, I open carried my Glock 19 in every situation that I could before I got my CC permit. Even if the bad guy sees my firearm first, it still gives me an option that I wouldn't have otherwise and there's still the chance that he might not see it until it's too late for him. Every once in a while, I would have to explain my actions to law enforcement due to a skittish individual. But, lucky for me, Utah is a relatively pro-gun state. As long as I was respectful and mature in explaining my actions and reasoning, they would let me go about my business.

    However, I don't believe I'd ever be able to justify slinging my AK over my shoulder and going to the Mall with the local law. Not only do I feel that the weapon is ill-fit for that urban situation, I believe that I'd have a LOT more difficult time justifying it to the Police. I'd pretty much be begging for problems/unnecessary court visits/lawyer fees. Just my .02. I'm sure others have different opinions and that they work just as well for their unique environments.
    Last edited by beejie21; 09-29-2013 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infantryman View Post
    ... which cannot be certainly known, just speculated and assumed ...
    End of pointless thread.

    To be more specific...

    Chevy or Ford?
    Mac or PC?
    Nikon or Canon?
    Rice or Hardley?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-29-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beejie21 View Post
    I believe both open and concealed carry are definitely viable for self defense. At least for me, it depends on the situation whether I'll concealed carry or open carry. Generally, if I'm going to be in a highly trafficked area (mall, store, movies, etc) where I'll be in close contact with many individuals, I don't want to telegraph anything to anyone. If a shady situation develops I want to be able to have the options open to either get the hell outta Dodge, or, if the situation warrants, move to a tactically superior location and escalate force to neutralize the offender. I feel that were I to be OCing in that situation, they would likely perceive my visible firearm as an escalation of force, regardless of whether I'd made a move to draw or not. This could be bad news if they decide to start hurling lead at me with innocents behind them. Makes it a legally precarious situation if I am forced to engage. Also, I think it leaves me somewhat vulnerable to somebody, either innocent or otherwise, grabbing the firearm from my holster with that many people packed together. That's a lot of hands to keep an eye on.

    However if I'm on my/family's/friends land or moving about in rural areas (mountains, desert, forest, etc.) I'm a lot more likely to run into aggressive wildlife. That wildlife wouldn't comprehend the black thing on my hip as a threat and it would be tactically wise to minimize the time it would take to get my weapon on-target and into action, ere-go I'd OC.

    That being said, I open carried my Glock 19 in every situation that I could before I got my CC permit. Even if the bad guy sees my firearm first, it still gives me an option that I wouldn't have otherwise and there's still the chance that he might not see it until it's too late for him. Every once in a while, I would have to explain my actions to law enforcement due to a skittish individual. But, lucky for me, Utah is a relatively pro-gun state. As long as I was respectful and mature in explaining my actions and reasoning, they would let me go about my business.

    However, I don't believe I'd ever be able to justify slinging my AK over my shoulder and going to the Mall with the local law. Not only do I feel that the weapon is ill-fit for that urban situation, I believe that I'd have a LOT more difficult time justifying it to the Police. I'd pretty much be begging for problems/unnecessary court visits/lawyer fees. Just my .02. I'm sure others have different opinions and that they work just as well for their unique environments.
    As long as you treat police officers as judges to which you must justify your legal actions, you're setting yourself up to have your rights violated. You're also fostering the creation of precedent that could lead to the rights of others being violated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infantryman View Post
    But anyways, what do you guys think? Does OC show your cards? Is it viable for self defense?
    Yes. It is like - like - protective coloration in nature, the honeybee advertises its sting, the rattlesnake and coral snakes advertise their bite, and the skunk advertises his weapon - and other harmless creatures mimic for protection.

    I appear as a gentleman as much as I can, with hat (not cap/ballcap) and jacket, and openly armed. I do conceal to minimize hysteria, but the mimicry of an armed gentleman, the hat and jacket, advertise the likelihood that I am armed.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    As long as you treat police officers as judges to which you must justify your legal actions, you're setting yourself up to have your rights violated. You're also fostering the creation of precedent that could lead to the rights of others being violated.
    Maybe. But, I currently am the only source of income for my family. All it would really take is one rogue Police Officer to put my family at financial risk. I definitely can't afford the fees associated with retaining a lawyer to represent me in court. Also, I'm in the military. Even if I were able to fend off charges in civilian court, I'd then have to turn around and deal with either an NJP or possibly a court martial. That's too much risk for me and mine for little to no reward.

    If you have the means to fortify the precedent, more power to you. I don't.

    I make it my practice to minimize all risk that I can. That includes physical, mental, spiritual, financial, legal, etc.

    When my situation changes and I have the money in reserve to control or negate the associated risks, I will happily join you in demonstration of our God-Given right to keep and bear arms and our right to defend our life and liberty.

    As I stated at the end of my initial post, I'm sure others have different opinions and that they work just as well for their unique environments. I guess I should have incorporated that they work just as well for their unique situations, as well. Don't be so quick to judge.

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    Criminals are cowards, lowlife scum, stupid, and a whole list of degrading terms but they grasp the basic risk/reward line of thinking. If they are in line behind you about to commit an armed robbery, they aren't gonna turn it into a murder 'just because'. They'll wait for you to leave, then rob the place.

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    There are always exceptions to the rule.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Here we go again with the same doo doo...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    lets see handy hamlet how did you word your comments on the Wisconsin thread Hello all, Just moved to Wisconsin from Nevada...oh right i copy'd and pasted it...

    quote
    Laughable if it wasn't so seriously pathetic.

    This place is ripe with trolls. Too bad.

    Shoo troll. Go away now
    unquote.

    your comments, as are the comments from texas unnecessary as the OP asked a fair question by wanted to discuss the subject and your dismissal like you are speaking to some peon is unwarranted and uncalled for...so to quote you again...'shoo troll. go away now' added for emphasis: some village is calling you home.
    Last edited by solus; 09-29-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infantryman View Post
    I didn't make an argument. Overall I asked a question that I've never really engaged in conversation with. In order to obtain information and possibly educated opinion.

    Edit: Also, I clearly lined out my concern for concealing a firearm, meaning I am torn between the two. If this is going to turn into a flame war defending something I didn't attack, I'd rather not be apart of it.
    OK, you didn't make an argument. FTG-05 gave you a reference to use to get answers to your question. Go there or search back through this forum for the same questions and opinions.

    Then you can get into revolver vs. semi-auto, holster type, etc.

    The question of OC vs. CC does not apply to a number of us in that we choose not to get a CHP because we choose not to ask permission for a mode of carry.
    Last edited by bc.cruiser; 09-29-2013 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    OK, you didn't make an argument. FTG-05 gave you a reference to use to get answers to your question. Go there or search back through this forum for the same questions and opinions.

    Then you can get into revolver vs. semi-auto, holster type, etc.

    The question of OC vs. CC does not apply to a number of us in that we choose not to get a CHP because we choose not to ask permission for a mode of carry.
    Don't forget the condition 1 debate...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Re: Is Open Carry tactically wise?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Don't forget the condition 1 debate...
    And "Which caliber is best"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    End of pointless thread.

    To be more specific...

    Chevy or Ford?
    Mac or PC?
    Nikon or Canon?
    Rice or Hardley?
    IOS or ANDROID?
    AMD or INTEL?
    GLOCK or XD?
    Hornady or PDX?
    Pizza Hut or Dominos??????

    I like were this thread is going
    SIC VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

    μολὼν λαβέ - molṑn labé - ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ - COME AND TAKE!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet
    End of pointless thread.

    To be more specific...

    Chevy or Ford?
    Mac or PC?
    Nikon or Canon?
    Rice or Hardley?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm760 View Post
    IOS or ANDROID?
    AMD or INTEL?
    GLOCK or XD?
    Hornady or PDX?
    Pizza Hut or Dominos??????

    I like were this thread is going
    AR or AK? (or Mosin Nagant:http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)
    Steel or polymer?
    9 or .45?
    Kydex or leather?
    Coke or Pepsi?
    The list goes on...
    OT, would this thread be better off locked? Debating whether or not to bother Grapeshot with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    OT, would this thread be better off locked? Debating whether or not to bother Grapeshot with it.
    Oh yes, please, it has been hijacked to death, finish it off.

    OPie, sorry, I thought it a fine question.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Let me try to clear something up for the OP. You cannot draw and shoot UNTIL your life is in imminent danger! The surprise is when you find your poop in the wind with a gun already pointed at you, and you then have to unconceal and draw, all because the BG saw you as a victim just like any other unarmed target.

    The real surprise is realizing you should have been wearing depends...
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Re: Is Open Carry tactically wise?

    CC by definition is a offensive tactic vs a defensive tactic. OC is by definition a defensive tactic vs and offensive tactic.

    Since we cannot preemptively strike a potential criminal and must wait for them to make the first move we are by definition in a defensive posture and there is no good reason to use an offensive tactic while in that posture.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ...
    Last time I checked this was an "Open Carry" Forum.

    Guy.



    You want to speculate, pontificate, defecate, assume, and guess? By all means, blather away. 'Cause until you are staring down the barrel of a gun? You got nuthin'.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-29-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    CC by definition is a offensive tactic vs a defensive tactic. OC is by definition a defensive tactic vs and offensive tactic.

    Since we cannot preemptively strike a potential criminal and must wait for them to make the first move we are by definition in a defensive posture and there is no good reason to use an offensive tactic while in that posture.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
    as in the finest tradition of this forum and as mandated by protocol (forum rules) i do not suppose you can provide citation for those fine definitions you spouted off can you?

    and your use of the royal 'we' ...are you referring to NC statute which i presume you are extremely familiar with living in Michigan?
    Last edited by solus; 09-29-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Let me try to clear something up for the OP. You cannot draw and shoot UNTIL your life is in imminent danger! The surprise is when you find your poop in the wind with a gun already pointed at you, and you then have to unconceal and draw, all because the BG saw you as a victim just like any other unarmed target.

    The real surprise is realizing you should have been wearing depends...
    I gather your stance is that your openly carried firearm will serve as a deterrent to the criminal element and by-and-large it does. What happens the one time that it doesn't? I submit that if you're very lucky, it will end similar to these scenarios, but very likely could be worse:
    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm
    http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/18...-managers.html
    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

    I'd argue that I have more options in such a situation carrying concealed versus open. I have the choice to keep my firearm holstered, concealed and out of the perp's mind and further assess the situation. Whereas carrying openly almost guarantees that I'll be disarmed at the outset. Either way, whether open carrying or concealed carrying, I'm at an extreme disadvantage. The most ideal outcome would be to give them my money, wallet, phone, car keys in an attempt to get them to terminate the encounter and leave me be. However if I feel that the situation is deteriorating, I still retain the option of utilizing my handgun to terminate the encounter on my terms. Although, a hybrid Open Carry primary with a CCW Back-up Gun could possibly serve the best of both worlds. Once again, just one person's opinion.

  24. #24
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    Re: Is Open Carry tactically wise?

    Hahhah so you think you can strike before a crime is in progress? Methinks not even in NC. I travel quite a bit and am quit familiar with the laws in many states including NC.

    By we I mean all LACs that carry a gun.

    When you CC you look like everyone else. When you OC and do it correctly you look like a hard target. Thus OC can effect the decision making process of the criminal which can preclude a need to draw the gun.

    Conversely if the criminal sees no sign of a gun and thus attacks you now you now are left with the unenviable option of trying to draw your concealed weapon and shoot him or her.

    If my intention is to look like a sheep I will CC if not then I will OC. Seems simple to me.

    The reason undercover officers CC is they want to blend in with the sheep.

    The reason uniformed officers OC is they want to project a hard target.

    I don't have any cites at this time as I worked this out via my own research. Take it for what its worth.

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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Hahhah so you think you can strike before a crime is in progress? Methinks not even in NC. I travel quite a bit and am quit familiar with the laws in many states including NC.

    By we I mean all LACs that carry a gun.

    When you CC you look like everyone else. When you OC and do it correctly you look like a hard target. Thus OC can effect the decision making process of the criminal which can preclude a need to draw the gun.

    Conversely if the criminal sees no sign of a gun and thus attacks you now you now are left with the unenviable option of trying to draw your concealed weapon and shoot him or her.

    If my intention is to look like a sheep I will CC if not then I will OC. Seems simple to me.

    The reason undercover officers CC is they want to blend in with the sheep.

    The reason uniformed officers OC is they want to project a hard target.

    I don't have any cites at this time as I worked this out via my own research. Take it for what its worth.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
    Then can you at least provide the source of data that you gathered and examined for this research?

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