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Is Open Carry tactically wise?

beejie21

New member
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Jun 19, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Jacksonville, NC
Let me try to clear something up for the OP. You cannot draw and shoot UNTIL your life is in imminent danger! The surprise is when you find your poop in the wind with a gun already pointed at you, and you then have to unconceal and draw, all because the BG saw you as a victim just like any other unarmed target.

The real surprise is realizing you should have been wearing depends...

I gather your stance is that your openly carried firearm will serve as a deterrent to the criminal element and by-and-large it does. What happens the one time that it doesn't? I submit that if you're very lucky, it will end similar to these scenarios, but very likely could be worse:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/18/4189841/robber-swipes-gun-from-managers.html
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

I'd argue that I have more options in such a situation carrying concealed versus open. I have the choice to keep my firearm holstered, concealed and out of the perp's mind and further assess the situation. Whereas carrying openly almost guarantees that I'll be disarmed at the outset. Either way, whether open carrying or concealed carrying, I'm at an extreme disadvantage. The most ideal outcome would be to give them my money, wallet, phone, car keys in an attempt to get them to terminate the encounter and leave me be. However if I feel that the situation is deteriorating, I still retain the option of utilizing my handgun to terminate the encounter on my terms. Although, a hybrid Open Carry primary with a CCW Back-up Gun could possibly serve the best of both worlds. Once again, just one person's opinion.
 

autosurgeon

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Lawrence, Michigan, United States
Hahhah so you think you can strike before a crime is in progress? Methinks not even in NC. I travel quite a bit and am quit familiar with the laws in many states including NC.

By we I mean all LACs that carry a gun.

When you CC you look like everyone else. When you OC and do it correctly you look like a hard target. Thus OC can effect the decision making process of the criminal which can preclude a need to draw the gun.

Conversely if the criminal sees no sign of a gun and thus attacks you now you now are left with the unenviable option of trying to draw your concealed weapon and shoot him or her.

If my intention is to look like a sheep I will CC if not then I will OC. Seems simple to me.

The reason undercover officers CC is they want to blend in with the sheep.

The reason uniformed officers OC is they want to project a hard target.

I don't have any cites at this time as I worked this out via my own research. Take it for what its worth.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
 

beejie21

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Jacksonville, NC
Hahhah so you think you can strike before a crime is in progress? Methinks not even in NC. I travel quite a bit and am quit familiar with the laws in many states including NC.

By we I mean all LACs that carry a gun.

When you CC you look like everyone else. When you OC and do it correctly you look like a hard target. Thus OC can effect the decision making process of the criminal which can preclude a need to draw the gun.

Conversely if the criminal sees no sign of a gun and thus attacks you now you now are left with the unenviable option of trying to draw your concealed weapon and shoot him or her.

If my intention is to look like a sheep I will CC if not then I will OC. Seems simple to me.

The reason undercover officers CC is they want to blend in with the sheep.

The reason uniformed officers OC is they want to project a hard target.

I don't have any cites at this time as I worked this out via my own research. Take it for what its worth.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

Then can you at least provide the source of data that you gathered and examined for this research?
 

FreeInAZ

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What citizens must remember - we are not police! We cannot go on the offensive ever - period. So saying that CC gives you some super tacti-cool advantage is .... stupid. I carry one or more pistols OC 98% of the time. My cc pistol(s) are there for SHTF events. The hope is that carrying OC will make me a unwanted hassle for the bad guy(s) and they just move on to other easier (looking) targets. The post above from Auto is spot on IMHO.
 
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solus

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here nc
snip...quit familiar with the laws in many states including NC.

By we I mean all LACs that carry a gun.

I don't have any cites at this time as I worked this out via my own research. Take it for what its worth.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

all those posts under your belt yet pushing and still promoting subjective and unsubstantiated rhetoric like it should mean something to someone other than yourself...

that explains what it was i heard...the crash of your credibility falling through the OC forum floor...

ipse
 
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solus

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here nc
op, as previously stated you asked a valid question which has garnered quite a bit of unsubstantiated rhetoric from the vast reaches of our fair country...

so let me change your premise a bit...

when was the last time you folks who are joe blow citizens not professional LE proffering these words of guidance actually practiced drawing your firearm out of a concealed position from under your jacket, shirt, fanny pack, etc.? oh screw it, when was the last time while OC'g you actually drew, on arbitrary command, your firearm and popped off two rounds under the timed stop watch?

to continue on this premise for those who carry BUGs, how often do you do it from your ankle holster?

the ranges around my area forbid you drawing your firearm from your holster due to liability issues and you must come up from the ready position.

does your range allow life fire drawing from your holster let alone struggling to get your jean pant leg up high enough as you balance on one foot to get your BUG out quickly and effectively to ward off an impending bad guy?

op fyi the NRA actually has classes (one brand new) where you gain proficiency in drawing from the concealed position, including from a fanny pack, as you expend over five hundred rounds during the sixteen hour course. I could not consider one of them a tactical course while my understanding the new one is geared from a tactical perspective.

ipse
 
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FreeInAZ

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@solus - I don't know anyone who uses a ankle holster? I'm sure a few people still do?
I recently have drawn & live fired at my range from a OC holster. They allow this after you take their class.
I practice drawing from OC & concealment also when I can in the desert. Not sure how many others do this. I am betting that if they had the areas and ranges that allowed it more would. I try to train as if my life depends on it...because it does.

OC & CC both have their pro's & cons. IMHO they work best together the vast majority of time for a citizen.
 

Infantryman

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Sep 27, 2013
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Goldsboro
Thanks for the great replies, those who gave me their opinions, facts, and some sourced information from other threads.

For those who decided to go ahead and disregard anything I said as "same doo doo" or whatever clever or witty response you felt was necessary: If this is how this forum treats someone asking a curious question that clearly has no bias (if anything the bias would be in open carry, which is what I do every day, going on for a year now) and wanted input so he could decide if he should even bother getting a CHP, then that is a shame. How many times did I have to pose the question, "What do you guys think?" Gee, it was if I was implying that I wasn't sure of myself. Like I stated, I have been lurking for quite a while and decided to make an account. Some of the ridiculous "jump to defense!!!11" came from people I previously valued opinions from. Next time I read something from them I'll make sure they bothered actually reading what they responded to.

If you did read it, and you're having trouble differentiating between points I might have made that may be overused (I stated that I did not really ever discuss this topic, doesn't take a detective to figure out I might be saying something that has been debunked, and it unaware of it.) and inaccurate, and the actual point of my post which was educating myself. Not even the first post, which provided exactly what I needed with a great rebuttal to every single one of my points could resist being smug.

Probably the last time I participate in a discussion here if all it amounts is garbage replies. Locking the thread is probably the best course of action, as my question was answered. Also, before telling me I should have used the search function, I did.

Edit: I guess since I am new I should put out that I am a veteran, hope the name didn't give it away. No I'm not special, and yes it is different considering it is very offense oriented training, but I have at minimum a thousand hours of stances regarding all kinds of weapons, including pistols and drawing pistols from (Army doesn't conceal, obviously) open holsters. Which would also lead you to believe that I am clueless, as I never owned a firearm personally prior to joining the military, as to what conceal carry is even like.
 
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JustaShooter

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Jul 26, 2013
Messages
728
Location
NE Ohio
when was the last time you folks who are joe blow citizens not professional LE proffering these words of guidance actually practiced drawing your firearm out of a concealed position from under your jacket, shirt, fanny pack, etc.? oh screw it, when was the last time while OC'g you actually drew, on arbitrary command, your firearm and popped off two rounds under the timed stop watch?

I train when I can afford the ammo & time, and practice regularly (at least weekly) to reinforce and retain the training. When I practice I do drills like drawing and firing on a target, drawing from concealment, magazine changes, etc. I don't have a timer, and I focus on smooth consistent motions under the "slow is smooth smooth is fast" theory. I suspect most if not all of the folks here train and practice regularly - if they don't then they should (and in my opinion are fooling themselves as to their abilities).

to continue on this premise for those who carry BUGs, how often do you do it from your ankle holster??

I don't carry a BUG in an ankle holster, but if I did, I'd practice drawing from that as well.

the ranges around my area forbid you drawing your firearm from your holster due to liability issues and you must come up from the ready position.

Most ranges are like that, but there are alternatives if you look for them. If nothing else, empty all magazines, remove all ammo from the room and use dry fire exercises in your living room. Shoot, do that in addition to live fire exercises - it's a lot cheaper and can be done with minimal time to prep, no need to load up your range bag and travel to the range.

does your range allow life fire drawing from your holster let alone struggling to get your jean pant leg up high enough as you balance on one foot to get your BUG out quickly and effectively to ward off an impending bad guy?
You don't have to do that to draw from an ankle holster.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
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North Carolina
What citizens must remember - we are not police! We cannot go on the offensive ever - period. So saying that CC gives you some super tacti-cool advantage is .... stupid. I carry one or more pistols OC 98% of the time. My cc pistol(s) are there for SHTF events. The hope is that carrying OC will make me a unwanted hassle for the bad guy(s) and they just move on to other easier (looking) targets. The post above is spot on IMHO.

+ 1
 

Rusty Young Man

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Jun 19, 2013
Messages
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Árida Zona
Thanks for the great replies, those who gave me their opinions, facts, and some sourced information from other threads.

For those who decided to go ahead and disregard anything I said as "same doo doo" or whatever clever or witty response you felt was necessary: If this is how this forum treats someone asking a curious question that clearly has no bias (if anything the bias would be in open carry, which is what I do every day, going on for a year now) and wanted input so he could decide if he should even bother getting a CHP, then that is a shame. How many times did I have to pose the question, "What do you guys think?" Gee, it was if I was implying that I wasn't sure of myself. Like I stated, I have been lurking for quite a while and decided to make an account. Some of the ridiculous "jump to defense!!!11" came from people I previously valued opinions from. Next time I read something from them I'll make sure they bothered actually reading what they responded to.

If you did read it, and you're having trouble differentiating between points I might have made that may be overused (I stated that I did not really ever discuss this topic, doesn't take a detective to figure out I might be saying something that has been debunked, and it unaware of it.) and inaccurate, and the actual point of my post which was educating myself. Not even the first post, which provided exactly what I needed with a great rebuttal to every single one of my points could resist being smug.

Probably the last time I participate in a discussion here if all it amounts is garbage replies. Locking the thread is probably the best course of action, as my question was answered. Also, before telling me I should have used the search function, I did.

Edit: I guess since I am new I should put out that I am a veteran, hope the name didn't give it away. No I'm not special, and yes it is different considering it is very offense oriented training, but I have at minimum a thousand hours of stances regarding all kinds of weapons, including pistols and drawing pistols from (Army doesn't conceal, obviously) open holsters. Which would also lead you to believe that I am clueless, as I never owned a firearm personally prior to joining the military, as to what conceal carry is even like.

If anyone here came off as confrontational, it's because countless trolls have come onto OCDO and spouted off debunked rhetoric or just dump their anti-gun opinions. In my case, I suspected this thread was the result of such an intent, mostly since there are others that deal with the same subject matter (and would crop up in a search), but it does not seem to be the case. I did not give you the benefit of the doubt, and for that I apologize.
Also, handles don't always remain faithful to the cause of the membger, or even give the best description of the same, not to mention the anonymity of the Internet. Until you've met someone at a meet-n-greet or OC lunch, you only get bits of them through text that fails to convey the entirety of their message (tone, aggression, doubt, sincerity, etc.).
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
This is an Open Carry forum. People here Open Carry. People here also CC. Crazy.

Tactically wise? That's like asking if my .380 will be good enough to stop the impending invasion of Space T-Rexs riding laser canon mounted asteroids from Uranus. Then throwing a flashbang and running away.

Amusing mental masturbation with no merit. As a military guy you probably understand more than most that it ain't the plan that's gets you through the day but a little luck, training, the guy next to you. And keeping your head on your shoulders while adapting to the plan that has just went FUBAR.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your service.
 

autosurgeon

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Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
I shoot USPSA competitions as well as three gun... So yeah I draw on command while timed. Is it as good as combat experience? No I doubt it. Is it better than what many people do? Most likely. Oh and I draw from my OC holsters no speed rigs for me. As my intent is training not winning a silly prize for the fastest gear.

As for my lack of sources... I have come to many of my conclusions from experience and really much of my conclusions don't have a big name gun writer to back them up. Thus I didn't post Cite as it is my conclusion and mine alone. As I said take it for what its worth.

When there is a law or ordinance or some such support I post it.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
 
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Rusty Young Man

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Now, I will TRY to answer your question(s), which are pretty broad.
I open carry for mainly two reasons; self defense, and I don't have a CCW as of yet. There is a lot of discussion among all carriers both types, concealed and open. Here is the dilemma I find myself in.

1. While OC may deter potential attacks, which cannot be certainly known, just speculated and assumed (unless there was a great amount of evidence such as them pulling a weapon, seeing a gun on you and running without you even drawing). It may also make you the first target. In any situation, open or concealed, once you draw your gun, you are making yourself the target of the bad guys fire, especially in a store scenario. That goes for both open and concealed. However, a lot of robberies in stores happen once the bad guy approaches the counter for instance. Say he's standing behind you with his buddy. He sees a chance to go ahead and get rid of the threat, and shoots you before you even realize what is going on.

Look at it this way, a criminal is a two-legged, slightly more evolved predator than what you see on the Nature channel, but a predator nonetheless. Predators have a great predisposition towards targeting the weak, old, lame, and alone ("soft" targets). They seek a favorable benefit:cost ratio (cost=risk of harm or death, in our example). If you want a cite for criminals being deterred by KNOWING or perceiving someone (potential victim) as armed, take this video showing the opinions of convicted criminals on the matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK1xQoxhPI
Skip to 5:08 for the relevant part*(sorry for not embedding the video, but I am on my iPad and typing this up between classes. Maybe someone can do so?).

To me, it seems that a conceal carried fire arm doesn't make you the 'target' as quickly as an open carried fire arm does in any situation unless the bad guy knows you are concealing. What do you guys think of this? Remember, I open carry, and I love it. It's comfortable too, and I too have speculated on certain peoples intent. Such as eve last night when a car of 4 men pulled up behind me while I pumped gas, saw my gun, and sped off. I don't assume that I was going to be a potential target, as I still utilize a military style medium fade haircut, and wear nice clothing. As well all know as open carries, the first thought of most people is "He is a cop!", so it could be that a lot of these people may be in possession of drugs or something as simple as expired tags and they suspect a warrant.

This goes back to LOOKING like a hard/soft target. Even the ILLUSION of a reasonable defense will usually deter the criminal, who prefers a soft target to maintain a good benefit:cost ratio. Going back to the nature analogy, predators tend to skip over prey that just MIMICS a well-defended organism.
As a side note, make sure you don't let people believe you are a cop, as that defeats the mission of OCDO, which is to normalize OC of civilians, and not the "chosen ones" (LEOs and other government employees). Obviously clarifying this applies only to people that don't set off your "spidey sense".

2. On the other hand, what an OC'd firearm can do is keep you from being a potential victim, but giving the illusion that you are not armed. People assuming you are a cop is a good thing. Tricking someone into engaging you while you are armed almost forces you to act, which no one actually wants to do if it can be avoided. To me, conceal carry has the element of surprise, the focus can and will most likely shift to other victims in the area, giving you time to draw and fire before maybe even they realize they are shot. But again, you can be in a one on one situation where you will be given no choice, and maybe in the case of open carry, simply having it would cause the bad guys to just 'skip' you in an attack and leave.

But anyways, what do you guys think? Does OC show your cards? Is it viable for self defense?

Did you mean CC'ed? Also, common people thinking you are a cop is NOT a good thing. It just reinforces the "only ones" mentality they get indoctrinated with through movies, media, etc.
I agree with some people that have pointed out that the "element of surprise" is more suited to offensive tactics. It provides no deterrence (criminals can't fear what they don't believe is there), so it would remove the possibility of a criminal wising up and an attack not even taking place.
You appear to know the general benefits and drawbacks of each, so I am unsure as to what aspect you are as yet still unsure of. The three explicit questions are a bit too broad.

What I think: "Speak softly and carry a big stick" applies well here (just please, no phallus jokes; I got a bunch when I was discussing OC with my non-carrying friends and acquaintances). By letting the criminal know you are armed, you give them the option to stop, turn around, and find another target or area to target. No "warning shot" is better than a plainly visible holstered firearm (besides, they are unnecessary and reckless, despite what Hollywood likes to portray). Any choice the criminal makes (assuming they have seen it) is fully informed. So in that sense, you are "showing your cards", but they are very strong cards, and the criminal knows it. Bluffing with weak cards will likely only lead to their humiliation.

If they are already attacking and haven't seen it, the case becomes very similar to what would happen with CC, and you may need to use your firearm depending on the circumstances. A bank robbery? Only if the perp/s have shown a willingness to end innocent lives. Otherwise, there is no need to risk your life or encourage the perps to open fire if they can be sent on their way with the bank's money (which is replaceable, and insured). In any case, I guess that part applies to anything that can be replaced (wallet, money, car, etc.).

As to OC and CC being a viable method of self defense, there is not debate there on my part. Even CC (possibly difficult to uncover under stressful situation) is better than not carrying at all. How you choose to carry is your discretion, but it may be heavily influenced by the circumstances.

But keep in mind you are on OPENCARRY.org. Thank you for serving what remains of our republic.
 

Grapeshot

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We are amused by provocateurs and the rehashing of old, tired arguments that can easily be reviewed elsewhere on this forum :p

Personally, I don't care how you carry - just do so legally and responsibly.

Me? I will continue to OC 24/7.
 

Infantryman

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We are amused by provocateurs and the rehashing of old, tired arguments that can easily be reviewed elsewhere on this forum :p

Personally, I don't care how you carry - just do so legally and responsibly.

Me? I will continue to OC 24/7.

Quite a dishonest take on my intentions. Again, it's hard to "search" for specific questions that I have. I open carry, I like it more, I wanted to know if people thought my concerns were valid.

I'm amused by people who get butthurt because someone who does the same thing they do decided to point out a couple of 'possible' problems with it that may or may not be true.
 
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Tacitus42

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Apr 24, 2011
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CC by definition is a offensive tactic vs a defensive tactic. OC is by definition a defensive tactic vs and offensive tactic.

Since we cannot preemptively strike a potential criminal and must wait for them to make the first move we are by definition in a defensive posture and there is no good reason to use an offensive tactic while in that posture.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

Best post ever! These people asking for cites from you... really? Do you need to cite common sense? FreeinAZ, Walking Wolf, and Rusty Young Man props to you also. beejie21 and solus:banghead:
 

Grapeshot

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Grapeshot

We are amused by provocateurs and the rehashing of old, tired arguments that can easily be reviewed elsewhere on this forum :p

Personally, I don't care how you carry - just do so legally and responsibly.

Me? I will continue to OC 24/7.
Quite a dishonest take on my intentions. Again, it's hard to "search" for specific questions that I have. I open carry, I like it more, I wanted to know if people thought my concerns were valid.

I'm amused by people who get butthurt because someone who does the same thing they do decided to point out a couple of 'possible' problems with it that may or may not be true.
Nothing dishonest in my reply - also it was not directed at you personally, but a general observation.

Trust that you are not suggesting that my feelings were hurt by something someone said - that is not my style.
 

solus

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Best post ever! These people asking for cites from you... really? Do you need to cite common sense? FreeinAZ, Walking Wolf, and Rusty Young Man props to you also. beejie21 and solus:banghead:

tacitus42, thanks my life is complete now...

however, as the uncited addage goes:

one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

so put into another common sense aspect: one person's common sense should have some credibility shouldn't it or is the common sense espoused strictly hyperbole to bolster someone's attention getting antics?

further, how can anybody who wishes to validate someone's uncited and apparently unsubstantiated experience/conclusion to preclude duplication of their effort of a viable learning experience to obtain such sterling results as they posture in their posts.

ipse
 

marshaul

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Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
1. What is the point of going to a range which does not allow holsters and drawing therefrom? I would never frequent such a place.

2. Anyone who has convinced themselves there is any "tactical advantage" to CC, or that CC is in any way tactical at all, is a fool. CC is more accidents waiting to happen than I can count.

3. Numerous posters in this thread are clearly not on the up-and-up.
 
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