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Search due to nearby criminal activity

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
We've talked about this from time to time, that one may be subject to a search if there are conditions nearby that lead a LEO to reasonably suspect you may be involved in a crime.

This poor guy appears to have been quite unlucky in what seems to be a classic example of how this procedure can trump reasonable cause.

From what I've read here before, it would appear this search will hold up in court... any of our legal folks want to weigh in?

TFred

A man wanted in King George was arrested in Stafford Saturday after police mistakenly thought that he was involved in a robbery.

[...] deputies went to the Sheetz station in Washington Square on State Route 3 about 2:50 p.m. in response to a 911 call. Police thought the caller reported a robbery, but the caller later stated that $25 was missing when a man who’d been in his vehicle got out and walked away.

While other deputies were at the Sheetz, 1st Sgt. Robbie Grella found the suspect walking on Route 3 toward Fredericksburg. When Grella patted the suspect down while checking for weapons, he found a piece of paper with suspected heroin in it.​
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
We've talked about this from time to time, that one may be subject to a search if there are conditions nearby that lead a LEO to reasonably suspect you may be involved in a crime.

This poor guy appears to have been quite unlucky in what seems to be a classic example of how this procedure can trump reasonable cause.

From what I've read here before, it would appear this search will hold up in court... any of our legal folks want to weigh in?

TFred

A man wanted in King George was arrested in Stafford Saturday after police mistakenly thought that he was involved in a robbery.

[...] deputies went to the Sheetz station in Washington Square on State Route 3 about 2:50 p.m. in response to a 911 call. Police thought the caller reported a robbery, but the caller later stated that $25 was missing when a man who’d been in his vehicle got out and walked away.

While other deputies were at the Sheetz, 1st Sgt. Robbie Grella found the suspect walking on Route 3 toward Fredericksburg. When Grella patted the suspect down while checking for weapons, he found a piece of paper with suspected heroin in it.​

A pat down should be for weapons. A piece of paper is not a weapon. Why would this far too intrusive search be constitutional? (Hint: Because the courts have shredded the 4th A)
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...When Grella patted the suspect down while checking for weapons, he found a piece of paper and then proceeded to conduct an illegal search on the piece of paper which was clearly not a weapon...

Note added comments to the poor reporting done previously.
 
Last edited:

TFred

Regular Member
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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
A pat down should be for weapons. A piece of paper is not a weapon. Why would this far too intrusive search be constitutional? (Hint: Because the courts have shredded the 4th A)
Interesting point. What level of a police stop is allowed by these circumstances? If the LEO is allowed to positively identify such a "suspect" in this case, then his outstanding warrants would have been revealed, and the heroin found as a result of the search upon arrest.

TFred
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Without bothering to read anything but what is posted here -

If he is "the suspect" in a robbery of $25, then he can be searched during the arrest for evidence of the crime he is suspected of having committed. It is not a Terry stop frisk "for officer safety" but a search for evidence that the suspect might otherwise destroy. This has been the way things are done for almost as long as I can remember..

The report should have read: "The search incident to arrest turned up a piece of paper that had a white powdery substance similar in appearance to heroin, which was seized for analysis to determine if additional charges would/could be filed." (Wouldn't it be nice if reportologists knew enough about what they were reporting to be able to say stuff clearly?)

stay safe.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
How do they know it's a drug? What is the RAS that it's a drug? What about the PC to question to content of the paper?

It's not uncommon for me to carry all sorts of unlabeled weird stuff in my pockets. It's not illegal for me to carry them and it's none of the cops' business.
 

skidmark

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Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
How do they know it's a drug? What is the RAS that it's a drug? What about the PC to question to content of the paper?

It's not uncommon for me to carry all sorts of unlabeled weird stuff in my pockets. It's not illegal for me to carry them and it's none of the cops' business.

They will know if it is a drug when the analysis comes back.

Pay attention, as I'm not inclined to repeat this more than six or seven times:

The report should have read: "The search incident to arrest turned up a piece of paper that had a white powdery substance similar in appearance to heroin, which was seized for analysis to determine if additional charges would/could be filed."

Being similar in appearance gave them the RAS to sieze it for analysis. If the analysis comes back as positive for heroin, that will be the RAS to arrst him on a drug charge.

stay safe.
 

TFred

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7,750
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
And if it doesn't?
Seems like a pointless question. If it's not really heroin, they'll drop the charge, give him a cold look of indignation in the eye and watch him walk out the door with nary a "have a good day", much less any hint of an apology. How else have you seen LEOs respond when they are wrong?

TFred
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
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Location
Valhalla
And if it doesn't?

Seems like a pointless question. If it's not really heroin, they'll drop the charge, give him a cold look of indignation in the eye and watch him walk out the door with nary a "have a good day", much less any hint of an apology. How else have you seen LEOs respond when they are wrong?

TFred

Just to be pedantically precise - if the analysis comes back as negative for all known illegal substances, what TFred said applies. Except that TFred forgot to mention that the paper and the substance (less what was used for analysis) is supposed to be returned to him. Probably will not happen, but it's supposed to be returned.

But what if it's not heroin but some other illegal substance? Then they charge him for possession of that substance, send him to trial, and all the rest of that circus happens.

Seriously, if you are trying to establish a reputation here you are well on your way. You might, however, want to consider what sort of reputation that is. We banter back and forth, and we try to see who can split the hair of the law the finest. But we pretty much draw a line at suffering fools.

stay safe.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
Seriously, if you are trying to establish a reputation here you are well on your way. You might, however, want to consider what sort of reputation that is. We banter back and forth, and we try to see who can split the hair of the law the finest. But we pretty much draw a line at suffering fools.
I asked a question. And you don't like the question?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
So you are saying his question was a smart-... question?

stay safe.

PS - Logan 5 --

That's what we call "bantering". You do, however, have the opportunity to turn it serious.

Nope - didn't say one way or tother. Individual choice.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
They will know if it is a drug when the analysis comes back.

Pay attention, as I'm not inclined to repeat this more than six or seven times:



Being similar in appearance gave them the RAS to sieze it for analysis. If the analysis comes back as positive for heroin, that will be the RAS to arrst him on a drug charge.

stay safe.

You missed a step, Skid.

Terry allows the officer to pat down the outer clothing of an individual he reasonably believes to be both armed and dangerous, and only after he has temporarily seized the individual because he reasonably believes that crime is afoot.

None of the above allows the officer to dig into pockets and examine the contents of folded pieces of paper.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
You missed a step, Skid.

Terry allows the officer to pat down the outer clothing of an individual he reasonably believes to be both armed and dangerous, and only after he has temporarily seized the individual because he reasonably believes that crime is afoot.

None of the above allows the officer to dig into pockets and examine the contents of folded pieces of paper.

Bingo! THAT is exactly what I was wondering. Thanks!
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
You missed a step, Skid.

Terry allows the officer to pat down the outer clothing of an individual he reasonably believes to be both armed and dangerous, and only after he has temporarily seized the individual because he reasonably believes that crime is afoot.

None of the above allows the officer to dig into pockets and examine the contents of folded pieces of paper.

Sorry, but as I read the information the guy was ID'd as the robber and arrested for the crime of robbery. The officer, subsequent to arrest, patted him down for weapons and then all the rest happened.

A Terry stop is an investigative hold - suspicion that the guy had been, was, or was going to be (in this case robbing) up to no good. There was no suspicion in this case - the cops were told by a witness that he was the guy who actually committed a robbery. A Terry stop would have been Joe Blow who was walking down the street with, for example. his head tucked into his shoulders as if wanting to avoid having his face recognized - RAS that he might have been, was, or was going to be up to no good. In this case it appears the cops had reliable information (much higher than RAS) that this specific guy had committed that specific crime.

Points for knowing whata Terry stop is, but not enough points to win.

stay safe.
 
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