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Thread: Ohio Statehouse property and garage - off limits?? Hmmm

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Ohio Statehouse property and garage - off limits?? Hmmm

    Yesterday, 10/2/13, I was in Columbus at the Statehouse to take part in a counter-protest (organized on Facebook by Princess Amira Kuevor) to some people protesting passage of HB203 - part of which would remove the duty to retreat from Ohio’s use of force laws. I fully expected to be on the lawn & walkway during the counter-protest. While on the Statehouse grounds I had an “interesting” conversation with two state troopers, their superior, and the Executive Director of the Capitol Square Review and Advisory Board regarding my carrying of two holstered pistols...

    I walked up to two state troopers near the steps on the west side (front) of the Capitol and asked to speak to their commanding officer about what I heard was an attempt to make the lawn off-limits to people carrying firearms.

    One of the two troopers advised me that a) I wasn’t supposed to be there, b) that the best thing for me to do was to get off the property, c) that he was “Trying not to arrest me”, and d) when I stated my desire to be arrested (if that’s what it took), he said “There’s always one” – before he finally radioed for his superior.

    When his superior arrived (a Lieutenant) and I repeated my question he stated that “Legally, being that it’s outside, we wouldn’t have any problem with it (carry on the grounds), but we have to go with what they (motioning to the CSRaAB people) say”.

    After the Lt. approached the Director, the Director then approached me, I got his card, and he repeated the fact that it was legal, and added two additional pieces of information: 1) the garage is part of the building and is off-limits, and b) a “couple of years ago” the Attorney General “ruled” that the grounds were not off-limits.

    I thanked the Director and left. Upon returning to the group of open-carrying activists at the northeast corner of the Statehouse property, Princess told me that earlier that day she had been informed that carry on the grounds was prohibited.

    Oh, did I forget to mention that the entire conversation is on audiotape?

    So…


    QUESTIONS

    1) If the Lt. knew that carry was legal, why did he defer to the CSRaAB to get an opinion?

    2) If the Executive Director has known for at least a couple of years that carry was legal, why didn’t the Lt. and his officers know?

    3) Who/why was Princess Amira Kuevor, who organized the counter-protest to the anti-Stand Your Ground people, told that carry on the lawn was illegal?

    4) If the Executive Director has known for at least a couple of years that carry was legal, why does rule 10 still exist in Chapter 128-04-02 in the Ohio Administrative Code? http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/128-4-02

    5) Is carry in the Statehouse garage legal or not?

    6) Bottom line: Why was I threatened with arrest for doing something known to be legal??


    CONCLUSION
    If this doesn’t make the case for preemption with REAL (not baby) TEETH, then nothing does. Multiple parties in positions of authority and influence, RIGHT UNDER THE LEGLISLATOR’S NOSES, knew that something was legal, but 1) took no steps to change the administrative code, and 2) allowed their underlings to threaten a law-abiding citizen with arrest.

    It is LOOOONG past time that ALL Ohio political subdivisions remove laws/rules/codes, etc. that conflict with 9.68 (and 2923.126), and the baby teeth I see in HB203 are simply not enough to make it happen. For guidance, I would suggest that Ohio adopt a hybrid of KY’s law (KRS 65.870) http://tinyurl.com/mwflmkk or FL’s law (790.33) http://tinyurl.com/kc5kaja


    Although I have plenty of ideas for how to proceed for maximum effect and benefit (for us & HB203) I will entertain all suggestions.
    Last edited by BB62; 10-07-2013 at 03:12 PM. Reason: edited to add link to FL preemption law

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    Some notes:

    1. I thought a recent law specifically made the capitol garage legal for carry. Am I misinformed?

    2. We need to win the HB203 battle before making unrelated waves at the capitol.

    3. After HB203 passes or fails, we need to have a massive rally on the capitol grass. If that does not cause a change in the way the "law" is enforced, then we should take 'em to court.

    4. No one posted about this rally anywhere I (or many others) would see it. So, please...

    5. Please post about any RKBA rallies on OCDO. I would love to join in on many of these rallies and would also like to pass them along on the eye95 Twitter feed, which is dedicated to publicizing RKBA rallies in Ohio. Please follow the feed and help me make sure that every RKBA rally in Ohio makes the feed.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...1. I thought a recent law specifically made the capitol garage legal for carry. Am I misinformed?...
    It would appear that you are. 105.41 (N) http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/105.41 says that storage and possession are okay - so I guess it depends on how "possession" is defined.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...2. We need to win the HB203 battle before making unrelated waves at the capitol...
    Unrelated waves? I don't understand what you mean. It was a counter-rally organized by a young black girl, barely 21, who a) heard about it from a former friend's Facebook page posting, and felt that the anti-HB203 people were hurling unjustified racist accusations, that it was a "kill at will" bill, and that they were generally misinformed (and it was clear from talking to the participants that she was right), and b) who felt compelled for the first time to attempt to organize opposition to the protest of it.

    I was/am thrilled with her initiative.

    From my perspective, it seems that the anti HB203 rally was organized by black churches and various leftist entities - who were either misinformed or purposely uninformed. However, like in Oberlin, there WAS opportunity to talk to those on the other side - even though quite a few were told not to speak with us. You know, it's dangerous to actually give people ACCURATE information!


    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...3. After HB203 passes or fails, we need to have a massive rally on the capitol grass. If that does not cause a change in the way the "law" is enforced, then we should take 'em to court...
    I think there are various ways to tie them in knots before such a thing happens (HB203 passing/being signed, or a rally), and those things will be done by me and/or others. A lawsuit or an arrest have big negatives associated with them (time/money), and I felt I could get them to put up or shut up, so I did.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...4. No one posted about this rally anywhere I (or many others) would see it. So, please...
    I knew about it only a day before, and had very little time to "vet" the organizer and the purpose, so I didn't pass it on. It's a shame because we were outnumbered about 140-15 or so, but that's the breaks.


    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...5. Please post about any RKBA rallies on OCDO. I would love to join in on many of these rallies and would also like to pass them along on the eye95 Twitter feed, which is dedicated to publicizing RKBA rallies in Ohio. Please follow the feed and help me make sure that every RKBA rally in Ohio makes the feed.
    Fair enough. Will do.
    Last edited by BB62; 10-03-2013 at 07:15 PM.

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    I think I could have been clearer about the making waves comment. I was not criticizing the rally. I was wondering if we would be wise to hold off on a capitol grass fight until after the HB203 fight.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    ...I was wondering if we would be wise to hold off on a capitol grass fight until after the HB203 fight.
    Not anymore!

    Now we just have to ensnare them in our little trap...!
    Last edited by BB62; 10-03-2013 at 07:33 PM.

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    Just info, there is nothing in HB 203 that adds any teeth to 9.68. The teeth have not been submitted yet as we are waiting for HB 203 to have a hearing date before any amendments can be submitted.

    IMO, HB 203 is a bad one to add teeth too. While it may pass the House, it's going to slide by the Senate. If it passes those two, I think Kasich will sign it but my worry is all those against it getting it put on a ballet. We would then have a huge uphill battle to counteract the "Kill at Will" commercials that are going to flood TV and the news. At the same time, it would delay HB 203 as going into action till November 2014 possibly.

    I'd rather see teeth added to another one of the firearm bills that have been proposed so that it would have a better chance of passing, going into effect immediately, and being effective sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JediSkipdogg View Post
    Just info, there is nothing in HB 203 that adds any teeth to 9.68. The teeth have not been submitted yet as we are waiting for HB 203 to have a hearing date before any amendments can be submitted.

    IMO, HB 203 is a bad one to add teeth too. While it may pass the House, it's going to slide by the Senate. If it passes those two, I think Kasich will sign it but my worry is all those against it getting it put on a ballet. We would then have a huge uphill battle to counteract the "Kill at Will" commercials that are going to flood TV and the news. At the same time, it would delay HB 203 as going into action till November 2014 possibly.

    I'd rather see teeth added to another one of the firearm bills that have been proposed so that it would have a better chance of passing, going into effect immediately, and being effective sooner.
    IF that's the read of those who know better than me, fine. BUT... it needs to have REAL teeth, not this "We're gonna fine you like not fulfilling a records request when and if someone sues you" stuff.

    It's long overdue, and as I pointed out, the OSP and CSRaAB were pulling their stuff right under the legislator's noses.


    Regarding your other point, IF the antis are going to make HB203 into something it's definitively NOT, then we ought to make it much more hardcore, rather than simply removing duty to retreat, and keeping the burden of proof on the accused. No duty to retreat, civil protection if no criminal prosecution, change the presumption of guilt, etc. etc. According to Legal Insurrection, Ohio is the ONLY state where the burden is on the accused.

    If we're going to get a delay in implementation, let's get something really meaningful out of it.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Regarding your other point, IF the antis are going to make HB203 into something it's definitively NOT, then we ought to make it much more hardcore, rather than simply removing duty to retreat, and keeping the burden of proof on the accused. No duty to retreat, civil protection if no criminal prosecution, change the presumption of guilt, etc. etc. According to Legal Insurrection, Ohio is the ONLY state where the burden is on the accused.

    While I usually favor eating the elephant one bite at a time, my opinion on this matter is rapidly becoming the same as yours
    They would use the same arguments against a full fledged SYG bill as they are using against our little removing of "duty to retreat" , so we may as well go for the whole hog

    They're gonna call me the same names anyway,,,,

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Audio of interaction with OSP & Executive Director of CSRaAB: http://tinyurl.com/nzgz3gq

    Thanks very much to member jabeatty on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry forum for all his help, and for hosting the file.

    http://crufflecarp.org/opencarry/10-02- ... action.mp3
    Last edited by BB62; 10-05-2013 at 11:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    While I usually favor eating the elephant one bite at a time, my opinion on this matter is rapidly becoming the same as yours
    They would use the same arguments against a full fledged SYG bill as they are using against our little removing of "duty to retreat" , so we may as well go for the whole hog

    They're gonna call me the same names anyway,,,,
    So, the question on the table is, 'should we pursue chasing a change in ORC 9.68'. Due to a lack of teeth, and abuse by a select few. It's been a few years now and I believe that since we acquired preemption, a sizable list of cities, (Oberlin, for example), Groups, (Village of Batavia, Taste of Clermont),and political subdivisions, (County Fairs, and CSRaAB, for example). I'm sure if such a list was put together pointing out the failures of 9.68, it could be argued that after a few years, abuses are taking place and that some adjustment is necessary.

    Also, speaking of abuse. LEO arresting LAC for OC, should be addressed also. A huge list of abuses of police power could also be presented to Law Makers at our Statehouse. I know just the curly mustached guy for that job too.

    Let's go for a bigger elephant, or two different elephants. It has to start someplace, why not make it now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    So, the question on the table is, 'should we pursue chasing a change in ORC 9.68'. Due to a lack of teeth, and abuse by a select few. It's been a few years now and I believe that since we acquired preemption, a sizable list of cities, (Oberlin, for example), Groups, (Village of Batavia, Taste of Clermont),and political subdivisions, (County Fairs, and CSRaAB, for example). I'm sure if such a list was put together pointing out the failures of 9.68, it could be argued that after a few years, abuses are taking place and that some adjustment is necessary.

    Also, speaking of abuse. LEO arresting LAC for OC, should be addressed also. A huge list of abuses of police power could also be presented to Law Makers at our Statehouse.... I know just the curly mustached guy for that job too.

    Let's go for a bigger elephant, or two different elephants. It has to start someplace, why not make it now?
    I agree wholeheartedly.


    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    ...I know just the curly mustached guy for that job too...
    Oh yeah, that guy - he's an animal! If one of those troopers had had a 'stache like his, the interaction would have been over before it started!
    Last edited by BB62; 10-05-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    You make the list
    I'll make sure it gets presented,,,,

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    Can anyone help me, or direct me to a free resource that might help me clear up some of the background noise or enhance the voices of those I spoke to, specifically the Lt. and the Executive Director?

    Although I purposely repeated things, I've been asked to see if it might be possible to do the above.

    Thanks much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    You make the list
    I'll make sure it gets presented,,,,
    I knew you were going to say that, I'll see what I can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Can anyone help me, or direct me to a free resource that might help me clear up some of the background noise or enhance the voices of those I spoke to, specifically the Lt. and the Executive Director?

    Although I purposely repeated things, I've been asked to see if it might be possible to do the above.

    Thanks much.
    Send me the link to your file - I will see what I can do with Audacity to clean it up a bit. No promises, but I will give it a shot.

    Had a listen over at Chuck's place Friday - some parts are hard to make out.

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    Thanks for the offer. The link is in post #10 above...?

    If you can't d/l it from that, PM me your contact info (name, e-mail & phone, also for my contact list) and I'll e-mail it to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    One of the two troopers advised me that a) I wasn’t supposed to be there, b) that the best thing for me to do was to get off the property, c) that he was “Trying not to arrest me”, and d) when I stated my desire to be arrested (if that’s what it took), he said “There’s always one” – before he finally radioed for his superior.
    I like the "There's always one" - comment.

    I do believe the British King said that about George Washington, Hitler said something simulair about the French Resistance, the KGB said something like that about Glasnost, and every person that was a against individual freedom saying something simulair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Thanks for the offer. The link is in post #10 above...?

    If you can't d/l it from that, PM me your contact info (name, e-mail & phone, also for my contact list) and I'll e-mail it to you.

    Try this copy.

    https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...SCYsuREc1Vf4Qc

    The background noise analyzed in a higher spectrum, so I did a blanket removal of the higher sound spectrums. Sounds a bit better to me - but I am half deaf to some frequencies.

    Let me know - I can try to filter out more, but the primary audio you want to hear might have some loss if I go to far.

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    Thanks for the cleanup, Stryker74. I'll pass it on to the requesting party and let you know the results.

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