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Thread: the battle within

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    the battle within

    This is a quote from another forum, and shows part of the battle gun owners and more Open Carriers have. We are a divided group. "Again, concealed means concealed.... No one should know you have it until it's time to defend your life or that of another."

    my reply was - Or carry openly to act as a deterrent?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: the battle within

    These folks are usually the ones saying "Don't OC, you'll get all our guns taken away!" They are the "chicken little's" of the gun world, as in "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" They often overlook what history has shown to be false. Take Michigan for example - since 2008, when Open carry advocates started organizing and having gatherings - the complete opposite has happened. One could say accurately, that gun rights for all LAC's there have been boosted by OCer's not harmed. :thumbup:

    I have heard many foolish things said about CC vs OC. The worst in my opinion is that CC gives one some kind of tacti-cool magical powers to engage a violent criminal who is already attacking. This is bunk, plain & simple. As Law Abiding Citizens (LAC's) we are always on the defense. To borrow from autosurgeon, why would one use a offensive tactic in a defensive situation? We cannot engage first, we must wait until after the criminal has made the first move. Why not discourage that first move by OCing & presenting a "hardened target" vs just looking like any joe average citizen, unarmed and easy to prey upon?

    I have nothing against CC. I do it daily. It compliments my OC. My CC pistols are there should something go all "$hit hit the fan". My OC pistol(s) are there hopefully to help me avoid such SHTF events.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #3
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The CC only crowd are looking for a excuse to drop the hammer. OCers are showing all that a hammer could be dropped.

  4. #4
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    This battle between the Pro OC folks and anti OC folks is as old as history. It's between those who "Understand God Given Rights" and those who "live in Fear" of government/PC society Control (Tyrrany)! Pro OC folks "Understand" their "Rights", which ARE 24/7 since birth, where the anti OC folks "Fear" upsetting the "Tyrranical government/PC" folks, who wish to "Control" Us FREE PEOPLE! It's just the difference between "Understanding TRUE FREEDOM" and "NOT Understanding TRUE FREEDOM"!! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  5. #5
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    This is a quote from another forum, and shows part of the battle gun owners and more Open Carriers have. We are a divided group. "Again, concealed means concealed.... No one should know you have it until it's time to defend your life or that of another."

    my reply was - Or carry openly to act as a deterrent?
    Not only would I like for you to feel free to use the following in any discussion concerning the stupid fish (dum bass) CC vs OC argument.. I wish everyone would use it all across the entire internet and at least get rid of the totally stupid "element of surprise" crap myth.......

    -------------

    About that "element of surprise" thing..........

    CC and OC have the very same "element of surprise" because the "element of surprise" is really nothing more than the bad guy being "surprised" to discover his intended victim ..... has a gun.

    With CC the bad guy is "surprised" to see his intended victim has a gun to defend himself with after the bad guy has already chosen his victim and the attack is already in progress and at that point seeing the gun can make the bad guy decide to stop the attack.

    With OC the bad guy is "surprised" to see his intended victim has a gun to defend himself with during the bad guy's choosing a victim process and at that point seeing the gun can make the bad guy decide not to attack at all.

    But either way... it was the bad guy being "surprised" to see a gun that was the actual "element of surprise".

    Quite frankly... I'd prefer the bad guy be "surprised" to see my openly carried gun and decide not to attack me so I can go home and watch the 6 o'clock news coverage .... from the comfort of my easy chair..... about the CC'er who had to pull his gun and "surprise" the bad guy who attacked him.

    Does OC's "element of surprise" really work? Well.... there have been thousands of folks open carrying in many States (Like Arizona) for decades! and yet accounts of folks OC'ing being attacked are rare. And you know with the anti gun media any incident involving an open carrier being attacked would be covered over and over and over yet such has not been the case in the past nor is it now.

    And, in my not so humble opinion, because CC's use of the "element of surprise" is only effective after the attack has begun but OC's use of the "element of surprise" can prevent an attack from happening............. OC's use of the "element of surprise" is far superior to CC's because....

    I'd much rather watch the 6 o'clock news than to BE the news.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  6. #6
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Even if I hadn't seen that quote on the other forum in question I would have known exactly which site and which sub-forum it came from.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The problem in my opinion comes down to collectivism, and the people who flock towards it as a life style due to being insecure little wusses who are prone towards trying to boost their ego's by being down on others via the ideas and actions of a collective of some sort (NRA, 1911 fanatics, etc..) which is something that simply plagues most parts of gun culture, and our slice of the pie has turned into no exception. Great leaders can fight through it and make things happen, but generally, it is a road block which is very tough to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    since 2008, when Open carry advocates started organizing and having gatherings -

    Small historic note, it was actually december of 2007.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-09-2013 at 09:12 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: the battle within

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The problem in my opinion comes down to collectivism, and the people who flock towards it as a life style due to being insecure little wusses who are prone towards trying to boost their ego's by being down on others via the ideas and actions of a collective of some sort (NRA, 1911 fanatics, etc..) which is something that simply plagues most parts of gun culture, and our slice of the pie has turned into no exception. Great leaders can fight through it and make things happen, but generally, it is a road block which is very tough to pass.




    Small historic note, it was actually december of 2007.
    Ooops - my bad. Sorry, memory is pretty poor these days. Never thought I'd be an old fart, yet I am! Hey, what were we talking about....where am I.... are the Golden girls on yet or Matlock?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    [ ... ] Small historic note, it was actually december of 2007.
    Packing.org - PDO - significantly pre-dated that.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    i had a good discussion with a friend at work about CC vs OC. He said, he likes CC because let's say youre OCing and a criminal sees your rolex and gun so he shoots you first.... Im of the opinion that a criminal will wait for the next guy with a rolex who doesnt have a gun! drawing a weapon concealed in close quarters is a lot easier said than done, especially under duress.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Packing.org - PDO - significantly pre-dated that.
    I was just talking about this forum and in Michigan, because even with this forum other states were making progress before us,, but anyway, do you mean in Michigan?

    If this is the case, please do tell, because I was never able to log on to that site, it was always down, then it was taken down permanently. It has always felt like I missed out with that site, but I don't really know, because I never got to see it.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-10-2013 at 08:44 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I have nothing against CC. I do it daily. It compliments my OC. My CC pistols are there should something go all "$hit hit the fan". My OC pistol(s) are there hopefully to help me avoid such SHTF events.
    Good call.

    I'm going to revise my position:

    CC can possibly be "tactical", but only when coupled with OC.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The CC only crowd are looking for a excuse to drop the hammer. OCers are showing all that a hammer could be dropped.
    I'm starting to agree, considering how often I hear the illogical, absurd "element of surprise" bromide.

    The upshot to the "element of surprise" is that you first get backed into a corner. I wonder about the mindset which considers this a "tactical advantage".

  14. #14
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I was just talking about this forum and in Michigan, because even with this forum other states were making progress before us,, but anyway, do you mean in Michigan?

    If this is the case, please do tell, because I was never able to log on to that site, it was always down, then it was taken down permanently. It has always felt like I missed out with that site, but I don't really know, because I never got to see it.
    Here's a snapshot to sate your curiosity, courtesy of the Wayback Machine.

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