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Thread: The Next Time an Anti-2Aer Argues Police Will Protect...

  1. #1
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    The Next Time an Anti-2Aer Argues Police Will Protect...

    We've got a pretty startling counter-argument if this guys stats and analysis are correct:

    Excerpt: "It appears that a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer....For the data that we have, police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder."

    http://www.ammoland.com/2013/10/poli...#axzz2hBIaK4wN

    Found it here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/d...rder%e2%80%a8/
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    "It appears that a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer.
    As much as we might like to think it is true, this statement assumes facts not in evidence. Even if the following statement that "police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder" is accurate (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it does not then follow that "a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer".

    Safety involves much more than a lower risk of being murdered. Is a person three times less likely to be run over by a passing motorist if in the company of a concealed carry permit holder than a police officer? Unlikely. Three times less likely to be mugged? Seems possible you might be more likely to be mugged in the company of a concealed carry permit holder than if you are with a police officer.

    It certainly makes nice headlines and teasers for a study though, doesn't it?
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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    As much as we might like to think it is true, this statement assumes facts not in evidence. Even if the following statement that "police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder" is accurate (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) it does not then follow that "a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer".

    Safety involves much more than a lower risk of being murdered. Is a person three times less likely to be run over by a passing motorist if in the company of a concealed carry permit holder than a police officer? Unlikely. Three times less likely to be mugged? Seems possible you might be more likely to be mugged in the company of a concealed carry permit holder than if you are with a police officer.

    It certainly makes nice headlines and teasers for a study though, doesn't it?
    That's kind of nit picky but I see your point. The statement needs to be reworded to something along the lines of "three times less likely to be murdered by a CCW holder than a police officer". This would be confounded however by the particular conditions present in EACH case for both CCW holders and police officers.

    It would make for a good study and I just happen to be in a CCJ research course and looking for a research project to propose......strangely, we won't actually be doing any research, just proposing a study. Sheeeesh.
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    That's kind of nit picky
    Yeah... Hi, I'm JustaShooter and I've been known to be a bit pedantic at times. By "a bit" I mean "a lot" and by "at times" I mean "pretty much all the time". Yup, that pretty much covers it.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Who are more violent as a whole?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Who are more violent as a whole?
    That question should go to Dean Weingarten or Radley Balko for data collection and analysis.

    I'd love to see the answer.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That question should go to Dean Weingarten or Radley Balko for data collection and analysis.

    I'd love to see the answer.
    Better from John R. Lott, Jr., PhD economist. As of November 1, 2012, Lott ranked 19th in number of all-time downloads, and 2662nd in scholarly citations of his work, on the Social Science Research Network. https://www.ssrn.com/

    ETA: His top downloaded paper,
    Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=161637

    While looking again at that, I noticed in the side bar,

    'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy, By Daniel Solove

    Abstract:
    In this short essay, written for a symposium in the San Diego Law Review, Professor Daniel Solove examines the nothing to hide argument. When asked about government surveillance and data mining, many people respond by declaring: "I've got nothing to hide." According to the nothing to hide argument, there is no threat to privacy unless the government uncovers unlawful activity, in which case a person has no legitimate justification to claim that it remain private. The nothing to hide argument and its variants are quite prevalent, and thus are worth addressing. In this essay, Solove critiques the nothing to hide argument and exposes its faulty underpinnings.

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=998565
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-09-2013 at 09:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That question should go to Dean Weingarten or Radley Balko for data collection and analysis.

    I'd love to see the answer.
    Lol data collection... do you really need data collection for an answer...
    if concealed carry permit holders instigated violence, anti gunners would have the story as front page news, yet how often is it heard about.

    Police... well...

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    I suppose if someone really wanted to stir the pot, they should compile some crime stats (not just murder) based upon political affiliation.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    I suppose if someone really wanted to stir the pot, they should compile some crime stats (not just murder) based upon political affiliation.
    You mean like pointing out the liberal slant of the mass shooters of the past three years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    We've got a pretty startling counter-argument if this guys stats and analysis are correct:

    Excerpt: "It appears that a person is three times safer with a concealed carry permit holder than they are with a police officer....For the data that we have, police appear to be three times as likely to commit murder as a concealed carry permit holder."

    http://www.ammoland.com/2013/10/poli...#axzz2hBIaK4wN

    Found it here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/d...rder%e2%80%a8/
    In my home state, just as many cops killed state troopers as did non-cop-criminals....

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In my home state, just as many cops killed state troopers as did non-cop-criminals....
    I'd LOVE a reliable source on that.....something acceptable in a scholarly paper.... It could make a very interesting tidbit in one of my school assignments.
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    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    I'd LOVE a reliable source on that.....something acceptable in a scholarly paper.... It could make a very interesting tidbit in one of my school assignments.
    The Connecticut troll backing up a "fact" that he asserted?! Too funny!

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In my home state, just as many cops killed state troopers as did non-cop-criminals....
    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    I'd LOVE a reliable source on that.....something acceptable in a scholarly paper.... It could make a very interesting tidbit in one of my school assignments.
    May not be that hard...

    What is his home state?
    How many state troopers were killed in 2012, or whatever year is in question?
    Was it determined who the state trooper was killed by?

    If there were 2 troopers killed and one was an accidental shooting by a local officer then yeah, local cops could be stated as being 'just as dangerous' to troopers as anyone else.

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    The Next Time an Anti-2Aer Argues Police Will Protect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    May not be that hard...

    What is his home state?
    How many state troopers were killed in 2012, or whatever year is in question?
    Was it determined who the state trooper was killed by?

    If there were 2 troopers killed and one was an accidental shooting by a local officer then yeah, local cops could be stated as being 'just as dangerous' to troopers as anyone else.
    He won't put it in his profile, but if he is trying to hide it from us he ain't (not all that surprising) all that good at it. He is from Connecticut. Can't you smell his mom's basement in all his posts?


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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The Connecticut troll backing up a "fact" that he asserted?! Too funny!
    I figured I would ask. I generally do when such an assertion is made. If no source is provided, then I figure there isn't one available or the person making the statement doesn't care enough to find it. Either way, without a source, I give zero credibility. With a source, it depends on the source cited. You would be surprised how many times I've seen Wikipedia or "Ask.com" cited in COLLEGE papers at the upper division (junior/senior) level.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    The Next Time an Anti-2Aer Argues Police Will Protect...

    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    I figured I would ask. I generally do when such an assertion is made. If no source is provided, then I figure there isn't one available or the person making the statement doesn't care enough to find it. Either way, without a source, I give zero credibility. With a source, it depends on the source cited. You would be surprised how many times I've seen Wikipedia or "Ask.com" cited in COLLEGE papers at the upper division (junior/senior) level.
    I recommend assigning zero credibility solely on account of who posted the "fact."


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    More on comparing crime by police and permit holders

    "I had a discussion last year where I compared the firearm violation rates for police and concealed handgun permit holders. Permit holders were at least as safe as police and possibly safer. Dean Weingarten has some discussion available here where he claims that police officers are three times more likely to murder than concealed handgun permit holders. [ ... ] Weingarten seems unfamiliar with the discussion about the Violence Policy Center claims in my book or other places. Here is a discussion that I had at Fox News about their claims about Florida." Link URL's from the original

    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/0...by-police.html

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...ense-shooting/

    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2013/1...olice-and.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That question should go to Dean Weingarten or Radley Balko for data collection and analysis. I'd love to see the answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Better from John R. Lott, Jr., PhD economist. As of November 1, 2012, Lott ranked 19th in number of all-time downloads, and 2662nd in scholarly citations of his work, on the Social Science Research Network. https://www.ssrn.com/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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