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Thread: Being armed in TN could have you charged with violating TN 39-17-1307

  1. #1
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Being armed in TN could have you charged with violating TN 39-17-1307

    39-17-1351. Handgun carry permits.

    (r) (1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

    (2) For a person to lawfully carry a handgun in this state based upon a permit or license issued in another state, the person must be in possession of the permit or license at all times the person carries a handgun in this state.
    A MO CCW endorsement does not meet the requirements of this portion of the above TN statute.

    Based on TN's reciprocity web page my MO CCW endorsement is not recognized by TN. Mo recognizes a TN HCP.

    http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A MO CCW endorsement does not meet the requirements of this portion of the above TN statute.

    Based on TN's reciprocity web page my MO CCW endorsement is not recognized by TN. Mo recognizes a TN HCP.

    http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml
    You are correct. Missouri continues to allow CCW holders from all other states while recognition of Missouri permits continues to fail widely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A MO CCW endorsement does not meet the requirements of this portion of the above TN statute.

    Based on TN's reciprocity web page my MO CCW endorsement is not recognized by TN. Mo recognizes a TN HCP.

    http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml
    Why are we not allowed to carry in TN on a MO permit? Facially valid means the permit is valid on the face not that it has to have a picture on it. Also regardless of what a CCW means in MO TN only allows the carry of a handgun and nothing else on a MO permit. IANAL.

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    Re: Being armed in TN could have you charged with violating TN 39-17-1307

    I don't want to seem dense, but that webpage looks to deal with whether other states honor TN's permits, not if TN honors other states permits. What am I missing?

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Exclamation The OP has already retracted this claim

    The OP has already retracted this claim in the following thread:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...the-cops-wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I retract. I should have read Missouri's web site first.
    This is additionally refuted by the following information:

    http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/
    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/missouri.aspx
    http://handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

    The OP's claims concerning the TN.gov website are also unfounded. The reciprocity reference is under the section entitled "States Recognizing TN Permits". This section is NOT about TN recognizing other states. It is about other states recognizing TN. TN recognizes ALL OTHER STATES. The reciprocity statement in that link has nothing to do with it at all. What needs to be understood about reciprocity agreements is that they are only necessary from other states. Tennessee will enter into reciprocity with other states only because it is those states' requirement for Tennessee residents carrying in their states. It has nothing to do with those who are not Tennessee residents carrying in Tennessee for the simple fact that Tennessee recognizes all other states' permits.

    Not sure how to spell it out any clearer than this:

    A. TCA 39-17-1307 makes restrictions on firearms
    B. TCA 39-17-1351 defines the Handgun Carry Permit and also defines that a "handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license" from any another state is treated the same as a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit
    C. TCA 39-17-1308 provides a defense to 39-17-1307 if the person possesses the Handgun Carry Permit defined in 39-17-1351

    This OP is misinformation. Moderators, please consider deleting this thread as the OP is completely useless, redundant to another thread and inaccurate.
    Last edited by independence; 10-09-2013 at 04:07 PM.

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    OP should retract on this thread also.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I retract.

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    Thank you! Had some friends that were about to cancel a trip to TN based on your erroneous post.

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    I read too much into the exact wording of the TN law, 39-17-1307. Sometime the literal use of the English language is a issue for me. But, the MO AG lists TN as recognizing our endorsement as a weapons carry permit, which we all should know is not what our endorsement is.

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    all you guys need is a double-barreled shotgun...
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    all you guys need is a double-barreled shotgun...
    I would, but we can't OC long guns here! So much for firing "two blasts"!!

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    Unfortunately, wordsmithing is a part of reading laws. It looks like TN did not make it easy by plainly stating what other states it honors permits from. And, they certainly could make it easier by adding "concealed carry permit" to their list of acceptable handgun licenses.

    But, if you want to know the status of state A's permits in state B, there is only one place to look, state B. State A's belief about state B does not matter at all in state B. The NRA ILA website's statements do not matter in state B. The hangunlaws.us website does not matter in state B. What matters is state B's statements. If you chose to trust anyone else, you may be in for a long few months in that state.

    Out of curiousity, what bans LGOC in TN for residents?

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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Unfortunately, wordsmithing is a part of reading laws. It looks like TN did not make it easy by plainly stating what other states it honors permits from. And, they certainly could make it easier by adding "concealed carry permit" to their list of acceptable handgun licenses.

    But, if you want to know the status of state A's permits in state B, there is only one place to look, state B. State A's belief about state B does not matter at all in state B. The NRA ILA website's statements do not matter in state B. The hangunlaws.us website does not matter in state B. What matters is state B's statements. If you chose to trust anyone else, you may be in for a long few months in that state.

    Out of curiousity, what bans LGOC in TN for residents?
    I agree with everything you said. However, you did not address my other comments above about what the TN.gov website says. The TN site does clear things up, in my opinion and clearly shows that all states including Missouri are recognized by TN. Take a look at it. The claims made about the TN.gov in the OP are not correct because misread/misunderstood it. Read it: http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post

    [snip]

    The OP's claims concerning the TN.gov website are also unfounded. The reciprocity reference is under the section entitled "States Recognizing TN Permits". This section is NOT about TN recognizing other states. It is about other states recognizing TN. TN recognizes ALL OTHER STATES. The reciprocity statement in that link has nothing to do with it at all. What needs to be understood about reciprocity agreements is that they are only necessary from other states. Tennessee will enter into reciprocity with other states only because it is those states' requirement for Tennessee residents carrying in their states. It has nothing to do with those who are not Tennessee residents carrying in Tennessee for the simple fact that Tennessee recognizes all other states' permits.

    Not sure how to spell it out any clearer than this:

    A. TCA 39-17-1307 makes restrictions on firearms
    B. TCA 39-17-1351 defines the Handgun Carry Permit and also defines that a "handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license" from any another state is treated the same as a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit
    C. TCA 39-17-1308 provides a defense to 39-17-1307 if the person possesses the Handgun Carry Permit defined in 39-17-1351

    [snip]
    Also, perhaps this correspondence I had with a TN DHS lawyer will help:

    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Nancy Myers <Nancy.Myers@tn.gov>
    Date: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM
    Subject: Carry Permit Question
    To: ********
    Cc: Lizabeth Hale <Lizabeth.Hale@tn.gov>

    Mr. ********:

    I have reviewed Missouri’s law and see that Missouri’s carry permit is notated on the driver license per Missouri Revised Statutes 571.121 (2). If you are traveling through Tennessee and a law enforcement officer should question your carry permit, advise the officer that Missouri places a notation on the driver license and does not issue another permit document. If you have any questions, please contact me.

    From: Email Safety
    Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 1:47 PM
    To: Lizabeth Hale; Nancy Myers
    Subject: FW: Recognition of Missouri weapons permit

    From: ********
    Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 1:41 PM
    To: Email Safety
    Subject: Recognition of Missouri weapons permit

    Dear Madams/Sirs,

    I am writing with a question on Handgun Carry Permit law. In reviewing TCA 39-17-1351, TCA 39-17-1307 and the link below, it is not clear whether or not Tennessee recognizes a Missouri CCW driver's license endorsement:

    http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

    The language in TCA 39-17-1351 is:

    (r) (1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

    In Missouri, a person is only allowed to carry a concealed weapon if they have a CCW endorsement on their driver's license. Said endorsement basically exempts them from laws prohibiting the concealed carry of a weapon. Does this driver's license endorsement meet the requirements of TCA 39-17-1351? Does Tennessee recognize a Missouri CCW driver's license endorsement?

    Thank you,

    ********



    Nancy B. Myers

    Staff Attorney

    Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security

    Tennessee Tower, 25th Floor

    312 Rosa L. Parks Avenue

    Nashville, TN 37243

    615-251-6301 (office phone)

    615-308-2486 (cell phone)

    615-532-7623 (facsimile)
    Last edited by independence; 10-11-2013 at 12:02 AM. Reason: more detail

  14. #14
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Out of curiousity, what bans LGOC in TN for residents?
    First, TCA 39-17-1307 basically outlaws the carry of a "firearm", making no distinction between long guns and handgun.

    (a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4''), or a club.
    TCA 39-17-1307 and TCA 39-17-1351 then provide a "defense" to this for Handgun Carry Permit holders but only for handguns, not long guns. However, there is one little known long gun exception for Handgun Carry Permit holders in regards to vehicle carry in TCA 39-17-1307:

    (e) (1) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person authorized to carry a handgun pursuant to 39-17-1351 is transporting a rifle or shotgun in or on a privately-owned motor vehicle and the rifle or shotgun does not have ammunition in the chamber. However, the person does not violate this section by inserting ammunition into the chamber if the ammunition is inserted for purposes of justifiable self-defense pursuant to 39-11-611 or 39-11-612.
    ...Bet you didn't know that last part!

  15. #15
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    From RSMo 571.121.2
    ... a driver's or nondriver's license reflecting that a concealed carry permit has been granted, <snip>
    Just a teeny tiny nit follows. There is no indication on my MODL that I have a CCW endorsement. So, if a TN LEO does not know I have a pistol he would not know that I have a CCW endorsement. If he does determine that I have a pistol I must display my defense against a 39-17-1307 charge by displaying my non-drivers license CCW endorsement.

    As I have stated earlier. I retracted my concern, the MO AG states that TN recognizes my CCW endorsement as a weapons carry license. Our CCW endorsement is not a "weapons carry license" in MO, we need no license to carry (OC) in the vast majority of jurisdictions, we only need a license to conceal a weapon. I am stuck on the words, obviously, used in 39-17-1307, my problem that I should work to "get over." My concerns are unfounded apparently according to the MO AG.

    No big deal. I was wrong and TN is back on my list as one of the few states that I enjoy visiting.

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