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Thread: NOT the way to Open Carry....

  1. #1
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    NOT the way to Open Carry....

    I called this one correctly. GB and Brown County simply humored the OC guys and sent them on their merry way..

    If you are going to OC, please use a sling that does not sweep everyone around you and allows you to maintain positive control of your weapon....

    http://www.kare11.com/news/article/1...town-Green-Bay
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-09-2013 at 09:26 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    If you are going to OC, please use a sling that does not sweep everyone around you and allows you to maintain positive control of your weapon....
    Part of me hates saying this, but I'd have no problem, as a juror, handing over a guilty sentence for brandishing for folks who do this. It's negligent and reasonably fear-inducing to the point of being aggressive, frankly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Part of me hates saying this, but I'd have no problem, as a juror, handing over a guilty sentence for brandishing for folks who do this. It's negligent and reasonably fear-inducing to the point of being aggressive, frankly.
    Ok to carry a pistol but not a rifle? Hippocrit. There is nothing wrong with exercising your right to carry. Who are you to say what should or should not be carried. They arent brandishing any more then any of the folks here who oc....whats wrong with you people? act like your for the right to carry but only if its a pistol? You sicken me.
    Last edited by S&W500; 10-09-2013 at 10:28 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S&W500 View Post
    Ok to carry a pistol but not a rifle?
    Is it your assertion that the only way to carry a rifle is such that the muzzle sweeps everyone around you?

    OC of a pistol in a holster doesn't compare. Even a shoulder holster covers the trigger guard.

    Do you think hanging a pistol from a neck lanyard would be a responsible way to carry it in public? I don't. This is comparable to carrying a rifle in the manner displayed in the video from the OP.

    I never implied that all rifle OC is negligent. Rifle OC where the muzzle sweeps passersby is decidedly negligent, however.
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-09-2013 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Is it your assertion that the only way to carry a rifle is such that the muzzle sweeps everyone around you?

    OC of a pistol in a holster doesn't compare. Even a shoulder holster covers the trigger guard.

    Do you think hanging a pistol from a neck lanyard would be a responsible way to carry it in public? I don't. This is comparable to carrying a rifle in the manner displayed in the video from the OP.

    I never implied that all rifle OC is negligent. Rifle OC where the muzzle sweeps passersby is decidedly negligent, however.
    No it is not my assertion. Only watched first moments of video didnt watch enough to see the retard pointing the muzzle everywhere. Took your post to be against the carry of rifle my mistake you have my appologies sir.

    I will be certain to watch all of the videos from now on before inserting my foot in my mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Part of me hates saying this, but I'd have no problem, as a juror, handing over a guilty sentence for brandishing for folks who do this.
    Please quote me the "brandishing" statute in Wisconsin state law.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Part of me hates saying this, but I'd have no problem, as a juror, handing over a guilty sentence for brandishing for folks who do this. It's negligent and reasonably fear-inducing to the point of being aggressive, frankly.
    What you just stated is akin to the statements of the hysterical antis... There are ZERO aggressive components to this method of carry. There is NO brandishing Statute for WI, and it clearly does not violate any municipal ordinance prohibiting the carry in a threatening manner. You are WAY out in left field here...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I never implied that all rifle OC is negligent. Rifle OC where the muzzle sweeps passersby is decidedly negligent, however.
    I also do not agree with the "negligence" supposition... I do believe it to be in poor form, rude and it reflects unfavorably..
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-09-2013 at 11:34 PM.

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    Brandishing requires hands - on anyways. Guns don't mysteriously discharge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Brandishing requires hands - on anyways.
    There is no "Brandishing" law in Wisconsin. There is no law requiring how firearms be carried (holsters, etc).

    From the brief clip it IMHO those gentlemen broke no laws. Had they I am certain my brethren lawmen would have arrested or cited them.

    The only debate here is whether that was or was not a justifiable F.I. stop. I was not there and the clip doesn't show everything before. So on that issue I offer no opinion.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    The only debate here is whether that was or was not a justifiable F.I. stop. I was not there and the clip doesn't show everything before. So on that issue I offer no opinion.
    Field Interrogation? Why would they need justification to stop and question if the stop was consensual?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    OK, well if there's no brandishing stature in WI, then so be it.

    For some context, let's consider Virginia's brandishing law:

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    And my dictionary:

    brandish |ˈbrandiSH|
    verb [ with obj. ]
    wave or flourish (something, esp. a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
    I would describe this manner of carrying as "waving" or even "flourishing". I don't care to cite (sorry), but I seem to recall instances where the threatening reference to a non-held firearm has been successfully prosecuted as brandishing. So I don't think the "hands on" rule is hard and fast, depending on how the law is worded.

    As to aggression, it's clear that reckless endangerment is aggressive. Whether this constitutes reckless endangerment is up for debate. I would argue that it does.

    To do so, I'd like to respond to davidmcbeth's remark:

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Guns don't mysteriously discharge.
    No, but they do when something enters the trigger guard and depresses the trigger. What, exactly, is preventing that with slung carry? This is why it's important to have redundancy in gun safety: do not allow the muzzle to point at something you don't wish to be destroyed.

    A shoulder holster does allow the gun to sweep passersby, but it also protects the trigger from being contacted.

    It seems to me that this mode of carry inherently violates one rule of gun safety, and does nothing to address another. If the gun is loaded, it's an accident waiting to happen.

    Any number of things can snag in an exposed trigger guard, carrying during daily routines. This mode of carry is not safe.

    I am not comfortable being swept with a self-defense weapon which is (therefore) presumably loaded.

    If the law doesn't address it, then so be it. I will, however, engage in the rigorous shunning of anyone who threatens my safety with careless handling of weapons.

    For the record, I didn't say this guy should be prosecuted. I merely opined that, were he, and were I on the jury, I'd wouldn't be uncomfortable convicting. That's a fact, it's my judgment, and I won't apologize for it.

    How difficult is it to sling the rifle properly, anyway?

    As far as I am concerned, you can carry a rifle all day. Just don't point it at me (or allow it to be pointed at me), OK?
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-10-2013 at 12:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Field Interrogation?
    No, F.I. is short for "Field Interview". An interview and an interrogation are actually not the same. At least under the policies of some agencies in this state. And as I posted, it's the only thing up for debate. I wasn't there nor know the entire circumstance, so I decline to post any comment or opinion as to whether it was a valid stop. So I abstain from debating it. Knock yourself out over it if you wish. By now you're probably aware I don't defend fellow officers when they are clearly wrong, nor do I attack when I haven't the entire story.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    OK, well if there's no brandishing stature in WI, then so be it.
    For some context, let's consider Virginia's brandishing law:
    Virginia? Please take this with a grain of salt, but who gives a rip? How about the law in Timbuktu while you're at it. It's irrelevant.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Virginia? Please take this with a grain of salt, but who gives a rip? How about the law in Timbuktu while you're at it. It's irrelevant.
    Indeed, but then I never argued this man should be prosecuted, only that he's negligent and dangerous.

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    Unlike the Appleton event the police didn't take up 40 minutes of their time trying to trump up charges.

    Maybe they are learning from their mistakes and the fact the it can cost them money.

    Different departments I know.
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    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    It is possible that the cant of the AR was a result of retrieving his ID, if carried in the back pocket.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...onsin/2953317/

    The above link includes a photo where the AR is slung in a "more safe" manner.

    My only gripe is the shotgun dude. One big azz shotty to be carrying around, what seven, maybe eight feet long that thing is. Probably a 100 round tube mag. Weighs about 56.3 pounds, at least. Though, it could make a usable crutch if a leg injury is sustained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    OK, well if there's no brandishing stature in WI, then so be it.
    Perhaps due to Wisconsin traditionally - meaning forever - lightly regulating openly carried firearms. Openly carried firearms was the only legal carry until 2011 Act 35.

    Contrarywise, Wisconsin also mandates >50% blaze-orange on hunters and their unintentional targets, to the point that my blue-haired neighbors are sure that they will be instantly killed (by a scion no less) on stepping outdoors under-dressed in blaze-orange. Locally, we have 'Jack Hagen's' law, a mandate beyond the department of Doing Nothing Right, of shotgun hunting only - the local hunters so little trusted with long range weapons.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It is possible that the cant of the AR was a result of retrieving his ID, if carried in the back pocket.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...onsin/2953317/

    The above link includes a photo where the AR is slung in a "more safe" manner.
    I suppose that would mitigate things somewhat, but if doing regular things (producing a wallet) causes your form of carry to become unsafe, it somewhat begins to call into question that mode of carry itself.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    No, F.I. is short for "Field Interview"... I decline to post any comment or opinion as to whether it was a valid stop. So I abstain from debating it. Knock yourself out over it if you wish. By now you're probably aware I don't defend fellow officers when they are clearly wrong, nor do I attack when I haven't the entire story..
    You brought it up and I an genuinely curious. Please shed some light on this. Is an "Interview" consensual? Why would you need justification for a consensual stop and question? It seems like good community interaction to me if they are finding out what they are doing and opening a dialogue.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It is possible that the cant of the AR was a result of retrieving his ID, if carried in the back pocket.

    The above link includes a photo where the AR is slung in a "more safe" manner.
    There is little practical difference between the 2 angles of carry. He is using the incorrect sling/position for walking around with that rifle. It is impractical as he has little control over the weapon. It WILL easily bump into things/people as he walks around if others are near him and he is going about normal interaction/business.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Indeed, but then I never argued this man should be prosecuted, only that he's negligent and dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    .. if doing regular things (producing a wallet) causes your form of carry to become unsafe, it somewhat begins to call into question that mode of carry itself.
    Nothing portrayed was inherently negligent or unsafe, no matter how intimidating people may find it. It is no less safe than a horizontal shoulder holster so long as his finger is off of the trigger and the safety is engaged unless you consider the safety of the carrier as he will find it difficult to maintain control of the weapon while carrying it in that manner. Where issues could arise is when the rifle bumps against things and if something were to get caught in between the trigger guard and trigger. This is more of a practical consideration in the field than in the concrete jungle..

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I suppose that would mitigate things somewhat, but if doing regular things (producing a wallet) causes your form of carry to become unsafe, it somewhat begins to call into question that mode of carry itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    There is little practical difference between the 2 angles of carry. He is using the incorrect sling/position for walking around with that rifle. It is impractical as he has little control over the weapon. It WILL easily bump into things/people as he walks around if others are near him and he is going about normal interaction/business.
    It seems, though I have no facts to substantiate my contention, that the cops were not too concerned about the form of carry. I don't OC a long gun because that is a site rules violation and OCDO might find out. I also would not be standing too close to that fella either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I suppose that would mitigate things somewhat, but if doing regular things (producing a wallet) causes your form of carry to become unsafe, it somewhat begins to call into question that mode of carry itself.
    I suppose every step we take, or whatever we do in public has a legal definition like in the military. Hmmm How would one safely carry? in a long holster and then slung over the shoulders?

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I suppose every step we take, or whatever we do in public has a legal definition like in the military. Hmmm How would one safely carry? in a long holster and then slung over the shoulders?
    He was carrying relatively "safely". He did not have his finger in the trigger guard and it was carried on a sturdy sling which held it in place on his body. My premise is that he "should" have chosen a sling which would give him much more positive control, would have better retention and is more secure on his body. There are a plethora of single, dual and 3 point slings which fit this purpose. A cheap 2 point just slung sideways on your back does not. Even a 2 point "Service Rifle" type sling would have been better and allowed him to carry it in a vertical position (muzzle up or down) high on his back over a shoulder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    My only gripe is the shotgun dude. One big azz shotty to be carrying around, what seven, maybe eight feet long that thing is. Probably a 100 round tube mag. Weighs about 56.3 pounds, at least. Though, it could make a usable crutch if a leg injury is sustained.
    It's the *only* gun the gentleman owns. Please provide him with some latitude, as his options are to carry the BFG or nothing at all.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    It's the *only* gun the gentleman owns. Please provide him with some latitude, as his options are to carry the BFG or nothing at all.
    Perhaps the AR carrier could loan him a different one next time He could have OCd the handgun while the other gentleman carried the AR.

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