Open Carry vs Concealed Carry - a comprehensive response

Rights are not contingent on government or by laws of the state. Though the rationalization to sell the state onto the people who live in them was to protect "rights".

The state according to natural/fundamental law according to the beliefs of the 18th century colonist were to have a negative effect on society (or the people) it was to negate infringements on the individuals rights or liberty. Instead we ended up with positive law which infringes upon liberty. We have seen the erosion of rights and liberty with positive thinking that rights are dependent on government, that people can vote your rights away, that state agents can proactively cruise around looking for you to break positive laws and punish you for it. They sell it as liberty and safety and the antithesis to chaos, the truth of the matter is government has created more chaos than it has stopped, especially when it ventured into being a positive one and it has cemented into the minds of it's subjects that the government and its courts are the arbitrator of what is a right or what is legal for the government to do, it has cemented it's position and ability to do so when it has convinced the population into a worshipful state of nationalistic jingoism; and garnered for itself people who will fight for the government right or wrong, who will vote for the "lesser of two evils", who will put up on pedestals its wars of aggression and your local street warriors who's job it is to enforce positive law and collect revenue.

Concealed Carry - Native American Risk

I have decided to carry concealed exclusively.

In my part of Arizona, county and city land is interspersed with Native American tribal land. While the Yavapai Apache government does not have the reputation for being jerks toward those who carry, they could be if they wanted to. It's hard to tell when you enter and when you leave Tribal land. There are no signs, and nobody is exactly sure where the borders are. I suppose I could consult a map, but I enter and leave Tribal land at least a few times just driving to the next town. I could break down on Tribal land.

This is how their law works - basically:

If you carry open on Tribal land, you can be detained, as any guns on Tribal land must be unloaded unless you are on your personal property or on leased land of an Indian. During transport, your weapon may be concealed in your vehicle. However, this privilege may be revoked at any time for any reason or no reason. The Tribal Police can not arrest a non-Indian, but they can confiscate your weapon. Once confiscated, they can return it, or not, at their discretion. You may have just donated your weapon to the Tribe.

Can you sue to get your weapon back? Sure - if they consent to be sued. Yep - they have to give you permission to sue them. Otherwise, you don't even stand a chance.

Carrying concealed allows me to be armed all the time. What they don't know won't hurt them. I obey traffic laws and stay out of trouble so I don't worry about confiscation.

Gun Daddy PV said:

...What they don't know won't hurt them...

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This statement is often used by folks who carry concealed unlawfully or against the wishes of a private property owner. You are not advocating either of these, right?

Gun Daddy PV said:

I have decided to carry concealed exclusively.

In my part of Arizona, county and city land is interspersed with Native American tribal land. While the Yavapai Apache government does not have the reputation for being jerks toward those who carry, they could be if they wanted to. It's hard to tell when you enter and when you leave Tribal land. There are no signs, and nobody is exactly sure where the borders are. I suppose I could consult a map, but I enter and leave Tribal land at least a few times just driving to the next town. I could break down on Tribal land.

This is how their law works - basically:

If you carry open on Tribal land, you can be detained, as any guns on Tribal land must be unloaded unless you are on your personal property or on leased land of an Indian. During transport, your weapon may be concealed in your vehicle. However, this privilege may be revoked at any time for any reason or no reason. The Tribal Police can not arrest a non-Indian, but they can confiscate your weapon. Once confiscated, they can return it, or not, at their discretion. You may have just donated your weapon to the Tribe.

Can you sue to get your weapon back? Sure - if they consent to be sued. Yep - they have to give you permission to sue them. Otherwise, you don't even stand a chance.

Carrying concealed allows me to be armed all the time. What they don't know won't hurt them. I obey traffic laws and stay out of trouble so I don't worry about confiscation.

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Are you a tribal member?

marshaul said:

CC makes you a target for being apparently unarmed, but to a CC-only type, somehow that's insignificant compared to the far less likely possibility of OC making you a target for being armed.

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Excellent point Marshaul!

Gun Daddy PV said:

I have decided to carry concealed exclusively.

In my part of Arizona, county and city land is interspersed with Native American tribal land. While the Yavapai Apache government does not have the reputation for being jerks toward those who carry, they could be if they wanted to. It's hard to tell when you enter and when you leave Tribal land. There are no signs, and nobody is exactly sure where the borders are. I suppose I could consult a map, but I enter and leave Tribal land at least a few times just driving to the next town. I could break down on Tribal land.

This is how their law works - basically:

If you carry open on Tribal land, you can be detained, as any guns on Tribal land must be unloaded unless you are on your personal property or on leased land of an Indian. During transport, your weapon may be concealed in your vehicle. However, this privilege may be revoked at any time for any reason or no reason. The Tribal Police can not arrest a non-Indian, but they can confiscate your weapon. Once confiscated, they can return it, or not, at their discretion. You may have just donated your weapon to the Tribe.

Can you sue to get your weapon back? Sure - if they consent to be sued. Yep - they have to give you permission to sue them. Otherwise, you don't even stand a chance.

Carrying concealed allows me to be armed all the time. What they don't know won't hurt them. I obey traffic laws and stay out of trouble so I don't worry about confiscation.

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I keep hearing people in the SW say that, I've carried openly on reservations in Washington and in Montana, the tribes in Washington are generally neutral as long as you're not creating trouble and the tribes in Montana are somewhat supportive. at least the Confederated Kootenai and Salish tribes in Montana on the flathead reservation are.

the real issue, at least in the PNW and Mountain state regions, is respect. if a tribal police officer comes to talk to you and you stick a camera in their face and play the "I know my rights game" then you just gifted your handgun to the first nations..

if you treat them respectfully and are polite to them then they usually don't give you much trouble... I would check their code too, because usually, again at least in WA and MT tribal codes are usually written to apply only to tribal members...

marshaul said:

CC apologia is hilarious in its desperate attempts to find advantages, to the point of citing its own detriments. CC makes you a target for being apparently unarmed, but to a CC-only type, somehow that's insignificant compared to the far less likely possibility of OC making you a target for being armed.

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While I do not agree with OC making you a target, CC does not make you a target either.

common criminals, the type who mug, commit property crime, rob for money, etc look for people who exhibit certain behaviors, and not nessecarily who has a gun, I've been OCing for less time then you obviously, but I've notice most people don't pay any attention to an OCer. I'm willing to bet most people don't even notice.

so a thug isn't looking for your gun, they're looking for people who are oblivious to their surroundings, let people get too close to them, are paying attention to reading a book or listening to their headphones. etc. If you're a CCer who is always alert and watching everything you stand little chance of being victimized by all but the most brazen of criminals, and those types might've attacked you anyway even if you were OCing.

state senator said:

...People who choose to live in peace have the right not to be exposed to weapons..." -
CONSTANCE N. JOHNSON, Democratic State Senator in Oklahoma Comment...

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Or tattoos, or men with long hair and scruffy beards, or homeless bums on the street that smell, or ugly girls, or _________

OC for ME said:

BS!!!!! Arrogance of the highest order.

Every permit issued is a clear message to criminals and elected vermin that the American people will not be deprived of their right to defend themselves and their family. Their unalienable right to defend their life, their liberty, and their property.

There are many folks that I know who would not carry for self defense if it were not for a CC permit. The 2A was a academic discussion that they did not participate in, they simply had no interest in the issue. They choose to exercise their 2A in a manner that suits them. Here you are telling them that they do not promote the 2A.

BS!!!!! Arrogance of the highest order.

I do not place people on ignore, and I ain't been angry in over 30 years, but buddy, you came damn close to getting put on ignore and I am angry.

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OC or ME, obviously I should have qualified that statement. I appreciate the heads up. I have amended it to read: "Concealed Carrying does little to promote the 2nd Amendment when you are in public unless you start the conversation. OC almost always encourages pro-gun discussions."

Generality: What is licensed, taxed, and controlled by the government (city, county, state, federal) is a privilege. What is done without any of those infringements is a right.

In those states that require a permit, concealed carry then becomes a privilege. Open carry, or concealed carry without a permit, is the exercise of a right.

I don't know who made the statement, but the gist of it was, "What you make legal and have the power to tax, you have the power to control and destroy."

Personally, I don't care how another person chooses to carry as long as they take responsibility for themselves and their family and carry.

IdahoOpenCarry said:

OC or ME, obviously I should have qualified that statement. I appreciate the heads up. I have amended it to read: "Concealed Carrying does little to promote the 2nd Amendment when you are in public unless you start the conversation. OC almost always encourages pro-gun discussions."

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I retract both of the "BS!!!!! Arrogance of the highest order." statements. I also retract the "I do not place people on ignore, and I ain't been angry in over 30 years, but buddy, you came damn close to getting put on ignore and I am angry." I am no longer angry regarding that which angered me.

Regarding the privilege thing. No disagreement from me. Unfortunately many of our fellow citizens are not as concerned about right vs. privilege as we here are.

EMNofSeattle said:

While I do not agree with OC making you a target, CC does not make you a target either.

common criminals, the type who mug, commit property crime, rob for money, etc look for people who exhibit certain behaviors, and not nessecarily who has a gun, I've been OCing for less time then you obviously, but I've notice most people don't pay any attention to an OCer. I'm willing to bet most people don't even notice.

so a thug isn't looking for your gun, they're looking for people who are oblivious to their surroundings, let people get too close to them, are paying attention to reading a book or listening to their headphones. etc. If you're a CCer who is always alert and watching everything you stand little chance of being victimized by all but the most brazen of criminals, and those types might've attacked you anyway even if you were OCing.

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can't agree with that EMN, i know if you look like an easy target then you will likely be targeted. I'll give you an example. my granny looked just like the granny on the Beverly hillbillies. but she CC'd a trooper 357.
but she looked weak and frail.
the comment i don't get from CCers is that they want to surprise somebody. that just makes me think they want to shoot someone

papa bear said:

can't agree with that EMN, i know if you look like an easy target then you will likely be targeted. I'll give you an example. my granny looked just like the granny on the Beverly hillbillies. but she CC'd a trooper 357.
but she looked weak and frail.
the comment i don't get from CCers is that they want to surprise somebody. that just makes me think they want to shoot someone

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I don't carry to suprise people....

so far I have both OC'd and CC'd, although I have CC'd far more often then OC'd. however I believe both should be legal w/ no special permit.

sometimes CC is more convienent, if I'm going into Seattle I usually CC, for example, I'm not looking to keep an "element of suprise" I just don't think I'm am likely to be attacked by anyone either way, and gun is just insurance. I also don't count on the "OC deterence" I don't think it deters many people at all, deterrence is generally anecdotal, the only documented case I can think of is the Waffle House in Kennesaw. most people go their entire lives never carrying a gun and never being assaulted.

I consider CC/suprise and OC/ deterrence to both be anecdotal arguments made by their respective camp to sound better then other people on gun forums. true, you can find stories where a CCer used their element of surprise effectively, and documented incidents of OCers deterring crime actively, but they're few and far between and not enough for a statistical comparison.

that being said, carry however you want in accordance with the laws of your state. the worst thing about the CC/OC debate is that it's tearing the gun community apart and giving fuel to the antis, I can think of one anti gun website where they say "even the hardened NRA supporters don't support confrontational open carriers" this arguments is being utilized by anti gunners to drive a wedge through the community....

EMNofSeattle said:

the worst thing about the CC/OC debate is that it's tearing the gun community apart and giving fuel to the antis, I can think of one anti gun website where they say "even the hardened NRA supporters don't support confrontational open carriers" this arguments is being utilized by anti gunners to drive a wedge through the community....

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If you say so. Most of the folks I know who aren't really pro-gun seem to think OC is more... citizenly, anyway. (Sometimes folks wonder if it scares people all the time, but oddly these same folks rarely seem scared themselves.)

Brady Bunch spew is just that.

Frankly, the vast majority of criticism of OC comes from all-out antis and CC-only types.

FWIW, my own criticisms of CC are only 75% serious. At least 25% of me is sarcastically showing how their own dumbass arguments work the other way, too.

(Of course, that doesn't change the fact that CC is grossly tactically inferior.)

Here's my take:

No gun laws. Of any type.

Recommend carry 2 guns .. 1 OC 1 CC

EMNofSeattle said:

While I do not agree with OC making you a target, CC does not make you a target either.

common criminals, the type who mug, commit property crime, rob for money, etc look for people who exhibit certain behaviors, and not nessecarily who has a gun, I've been OCing for less time then you obviously, but I've notice most people don't pay any attention to an OCer. I'm willing to bet most people don't even notice.

so a thug isn't looking for your gun, they're looking for people who are oblivious to their surroundings, let people get too close to them, are paying attention to reading a book or listening to their headphones. etc. If you're a CCer who is always alert and watching everything you stand little chance of being victimized by all but the most brazen of criminals, and those types might've attacked you anyway even if you were OCing.

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Not in my experience and not in the neighborhoods I grew up.

Nervous looking guys with darting eyes will be targeted in many areas.

Respect keeps you from getting harassed in many neighborhoods. For those that prey on people it isn't much different than the animal world they will look for weak people and easy targets mostly.

marshaul said:

I'm sorry if I came off as arrogant and condescending. But I didn't present myself as a "guru on a mountain top with knowledge the rest of us don't have". I offered an articulate explanation of my reasoning, one which you are free to accept or reject on its merits – not mine.

I'd be interested if folks have ideas for how I might have more tactfully conveyed my intent, which was to praise eye95 for being thoughtful on the matter, but to suggest that his way of articulating the reasoning could use some fallacy-proofing.

I would hope the forum would take any opportunity to point out when my own reasoning is incomplete or implicitly fallacious.

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Your approach was polite, articulate, and steeped in reason. Eyes response is emotive and retaliatory because you presented, maturely, the shortcomings in his commentary.

You run into this kind of response when you go beyond the superficial surface of a comment to its core and have disrupted another human being in their laziness or lack of total or comprehensive ponderance. The philosopher plays rubiks cube with a proposition until all its colors are exposed and it has been viewed from all sides, the puzzle completed. The layman tries what meaning s/he can grasp from the comment and maybe gets one side to match, then gives up.

Just sayin...

I am not sure the author of this quote, but it goes something like, “ An armed society is a polite society”
I do not ask permision to use that witch God gave me !
Semper Fi
Smitty

Thank you, Sir