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Thread: Can Officer Force ID....

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    Can Officer Force ID....

    The weather is getting cooler. We will start wearing jackets and coats.
    Question:

    If we are on public property and the wind blows open our jacket and exposes our gun can an officer force an ID check to verify we have a CC permit?

  2. #2
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    From ORC 2921.29:
    2921.29 Failure to disclose personal information.

    (A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person's name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:

    (1) The person is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense.

    (2) The person witnessed any of the following:

    (a) An offense of violence that would constitute a felony under the laws of this state;

    (b) A felony offense that causes or results in, or creates a substantial risk of, serious physical harm to another person or to property;

    (c) Any attempt or conspiracy to commit, or complicity in committing, any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section;

    (d) Any conduct reasonably indicating that any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section or any attempt, conspiracy, or complicity described in division (A)(2)(c) of this section has been, is being, or is about to be committed.



    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to disclose one's personal information, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

    (C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that person's name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that person's name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.

    (D) It is not a violation of this section to refuse to answer a question that would reveal a person's age or date of birth if age is an element of the crime that the person is suspected of committing.
    The way I read it, the officer must have RAS that you have, are in the process of, or are about to commit a crime or have witnessed one and even then they can only require you to identify yourself by giving name, address and date of birth.

    However, ORC 2923.12 says

    (B) No person who has been issued a concealed handgun license shall do any of the following:

    (1) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the person after the person has been stopped that the person has been issued a concealed handgun license and that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun;
    Therefore, if you are stopped for a law enforcement purpose, if you have a CHL you must notify - and if you do not, you are in violation of the statute.

    So the question becomes, does glimpsing a concealed weapon give an officer RAS to stop you? I do not know the answer to that but I don't think it does unless you are in a prohibited place or other circumstances combined with the glimpse of the firearm give the officer RAS (like you suddenly turn and start heading away from the officer when you see him, you match the description of a suspect in a crime, there has been an armed robbery in the area recently, etc).

    Hopefully someone with more information can post...
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Of course a cop can force you to ID yourself. The lawfulness of he forcing you to ID is a different question.

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    2923.12 seems broader then RAS .... "any LE purpose"....what the heck does that mean? Anything in my book.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    2923.12 seems broader then RAS .... "any LE purpose"....what the heck does that mean? Anything in my book.
    Not just anything - for example, if a LEO walks past you on the sidewalk and nods his head or asks what time it is, that's not a law enforcement purpose and you don't have to notify. But it is certainly broader than RAS. For example, if you go through a sobriety checkpoint or similar, you have to notify - you don't have to answer any questions but you do have to notify because that is being stopped for a law enforcement purpose. In fact, it is a favorite method for new CHL holders to use to get the "first notify jitters" out of the way.

    Edited to add: This only applies if you are carrying concealed and have a CHL. If you have a CHL and are carrying openly, no need to notify (except when in a motor vehicle, if the firearm is loaded).
    Last edited by JustaShooter; 10-16-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    2923.12 seems broader then RAS .... "any LE purpose"....what the heck does that mean? Anything in my book.
    Who cares what your book says? You don't know spit about Ohio law.

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    A "legitimate law enforcement purpose" would not include a stop because a gun was flashed. That does not constitute RAS. So, if it is not a Terry Stop, requiring RAS, what kind of stop is it? Are you a witness to a crime being interviewed as to what was witnessed?

    Bottom line: You can't know, until a judge says one way or the other, whether you have been stopped for a "legitimate law enforcement purpose." So, if you are concealing, show your license. If you feel the cop was out of line, file a complaint later or file a lawsuit. If you do not show your CHL, and the judge says that the stop was legit, you are in trouble.

    However, I recommend carrying openly and sterile. That's how I handled keeping a cop's hands off my license during a rogue stop. During my first encounter at Eastdale Mall, I did not know about carrying sterile, and was forced to give the officer my license. During my second encounter, my CPL and my DL were in my car. If the officers had demanded either of them, I would have simply stared blankly at them.

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    Regular Member Chuck!'s Avatar
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    If a cop happens to spot you concealing a hand gun, I'd say any judge you come before will agree he has RAS to stop and question you.
    The suspected crime would be CCW, and I can't imagine any judge saying the cop had shouldn't have stopped you.

    Carrying openly, however, takes that away from them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    If a cop happens to spot you concealing a hand gun, I'd say any judge you come before will agree he has RAS to stop and question you.
    The suspected crime would be CCW, and I can't imagine any judge saying the cop had shouldn't have stopped you.
    +1

    The suspected offense will be carrying a concealed gun without a CHL.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Of course a cop can force you to ID yourself. The lawfulness of he forcing you to ID is a different question.
    no she can not force you to ID. she can arrest you, but they would have to come up with a charge to do it with. of course in today's society that can be a number of faux laws that are on the books.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    +1

    The suspected offense will be carrying a concealed gun without a CHL.
    And why would he suspect that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    And why would he suspect that?
    You mean besides the fact that Ohio is the state that gave us Terry v Ohio, where Terry was convicted of carrying a concealed handgun?

    Yeah, I know. The law may have changed, but you get my point. CC is an offense in most states. Permits grant an exception to the offense. Depends exactly on how the statute is written. If there is a statute that says CC is illegal, then the courts are gonna say the cop was legally justified to suspect the offense.

    Separately, if the CCW statute says you have to have the permit on you at all times, and must show it upon LEO demand, the cop can just demand the permit. Its not a Terry Stop, its a license check. Same difference on whether its voluntary--it won't be.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You mean besides the fact that Ohio is the state that gave us Terry v Ohio, where Terry was convicted of carrying a concealed handgun?...
    Lots of words, but you didn't answer my question.

    WHY would he suspect that the person was carrying a concealed gun without a CHL? A court may uphold his actions, but to insist that he has reason to think that one is carrying without a license is baloney. (or bologna, if you prefer)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Lots of words, but you didn't answer my question.

    WHY would he suspect that the person was carrying a concealed gun without a CHL? A court may uphold his actions, but to insist that he has reason to think that one is carrying without a license is baloney. (or bologna, if you prefer)
    Oh, I see your little semantics game. OK. My fault for including the words without a CHL.

    Revised: The suspected offense would be carrying a concealed gun.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, I see your little semantics game. OK. My fault for including the words without a CHL.

    Revised: The suspected offense would be carrying a concealed gun.
    "Semantics"? You know better than most that the law is about "semantics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck! View Post
    If a cop happens to spot you concealing a hand gun, I'd say any judge you come before will agree he has RAS to stop and question you.
    The suspected crime would be CCW, and I can't imagine any judge saying the cop had shouldn't have stopped you.

    Carrying openly, however, takes that away from them
    It depends on how the law is worded. If the crime is carrying concealed and the license is a defense, then, yes, detecting CC is RAS. If the crime is CC without a license, then, no, spotting the firearm, without reason to believe that the carrier does not have a license, is not RAS.


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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Can Officer point a Glock in your face?

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    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.

    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

    3. Subdivisions (1), ... Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older or eighteen years of age or older and a member of the United States Armed Forces, or honorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces, transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Subdivision (10) ...

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    Is there a difference between the bold and the term "is a defense against...?"

    Some seem to think that there is not. I think there is because some states use the term "defense against."

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Can Officer point a Glock in your face?
    Of course a cop can point a Glock in your face. The lawfulness of he pointing a Glock in your face is a different question.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Of course a cop can point a Glock in your face. The lawfulness of he pointing a Glock in your face is a different question.
    The question posed was "can officer force...". Not "may officer force", or "can officer legally compel".


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    Chuck already said it...If I am CC and my gun is exposed, a LEO would have RAS that I am carrying a concealed weapon.

    If the LEO stops me, under Ohio's Concealed Handgun Licensee requirements, I would HAVE to notify that I have a CHL and am armed, and provide my CHL and ID to the LEO, if he asks for them.

    I say "HAVE to" loosely. Of course I don't HAVE to do anything. I just prefer to not be arrested and have my CHL revoked.


    So no, an officer can NOT force ID, but an officer CAN arrest.

    Open carry avoids the issue.
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    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

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    RAS require suspicions of a crime. What crime would the officer suspect? IOW, is carrying concealed a crime in Ohio to which the license is a defense, or is carrying without a license the crime? If it is the former, the officer has RAS of a crime and can stop. If it is the latter, then the officer does not have RAS of a crime and would need some other justification just to initiate the stop.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The question posed was "can officer force...". Not "may officer force", or "can officer legally compel".

    Of course a cop can force you to ID yourself, because he can point a Glock in your face to force you to ID yourself.

    The lawfulness of he pointing a Glock in your face to force you to ID yourself is a different question.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    RAS require suspicions of a crime. What crime would the officer suspect? IOW, is carrying concealed a crime in Ohio to which the license is a defense, or is carrying without a license the crime? If it is the former, the officer has RAS of a crime and can stop. If it is the latter, then the officer does not have RAS of a crime and would need some other justification just to initiate the stop.
    And that is the question. I've read ORC 2923.12 many times and I still don't know the answer.
    2923.12 (A)(2) says
    (A) No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on the person's person or concealed ready at hand, any of the following:
    ...
    (2) A handgun other than a dangerous ordnance;
    And 2923.12 (C) (2) says
    (2) Division (A)(2) of this section does not apply to any person who, at the time of the alleged carrying or possession of a handgun, is carrying a valid concealed handgun license
    Does that make a CHL a defense to the crime of CCW? I can see where it might, but I could also see where it might not.
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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    If the LEO stops me, under Ohio's Concealed Handgun Licensee requirements, I would HAVE to notify that I have a CHL and am armed, and provide my CHL and ID to the LEO, if he asks for them.
    I also thought this was the case until I was re-re-re-reading 2923.12 to try to understand if a CHL is a defense to CCW or if the crime is CCW without a CHL - but I don't see this in 2923.12 or 2923.126 in the duties of a licensed individual. I can see where a licensed individual must carry their CHL when carrying a concealed handgun but I don't see where they have to provide it or even show it to a LEO on request. Is elsewhere in the ORC, or am I just missing it? In either case, can you provide a cite?
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