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Can Officer Force ID....

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
1,028
Location
Logan, OH
Chuck already said it...If I am CC and my gun is exposed, a LEO would have RAS that I am carrying a concealed weapon.

If the LEO stops me, under Ohio's Concealed Handgun Licensee requirements, I would HAVE to notify that I have a CHL and am armed, and provide my CHL and ID to the LEO, if he asks for them.

I say "HAVE to" loosely. Of course I don't HAVE to do anything. I just prefer to not be arrested and have my CHL revoked.


So no, an officer can NOT force ID, but an officer CAN arrest.

Open carry avoids the issue.
 

eye95

Well-known member
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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
RAS require suspicions of a crime. What crime would the officer suspect? IOW, is carrying concealed a crime in Ohio to which the license is a defense, or is carrying without a license the crime? If it is the former, the officer has RAS of a crime and can stop. If it is the latter, then the officer does not have RAS of a crime and would need some other justification just to initiate the stop.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
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White Oak Plantation
The question posed was "can officer force...". Not "may officer force", or "can officer legally compel".

;)
Of course a cop can force you to ID yourself, because he can point a Glock in your face to force you to ID yourself.;)

The lawfulness of he pointing a Glock in your face to force you to ID yourself is a different question.;)
 

JustaShooter

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NE Ohio
RAS require suspicions of a crime. What crime would the officer suspect? IOW, is carrying concealed a crime in Ohio to which the license is a defense, or is carrying without a license the crime? If it is the former, the officer has RAS of a crime and can stop. If it is the latter, then the officer does not have RAS of a crime and would need some other justification just to initiate the stop.

And that is the question. I've read ORC 2923.12 many times and I still don't know the answer. :(
2923.12 (A)(2) says
(A) No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on the person's person or concealed ready at hand, any of the following:
...
(2) A handgun other than a dangerous ordnance;

And 2923.12 (C) (2) says
(2) Division (A)(2) of this section does not apply to any person who, at the time of the alleged carrying or possession of a handgun, is carrying a valid concealed handgun license
Does that make a CHL a defense to the crime of CCW? I can see where it might, but I could also see where it might not.
 

JustaShooter

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NE Ohio
If the LEO stops me, under Ohio's Concealed Handgun Licensee requirements, I would HAVE to notify that I have a CHL and am armed, and provide my CHL and ID to the LEO, if he asks for them.

I also thought this was the case until I was re-re-re-reading 2923.12 to try to understand if a CHL is a defense to CCW or if the crime is CCW without a CHL - but I don't see this in 2923.12 or 2923.126 in the duties of a licensed individual. I can see where a licensed individual must carry their CHL when carrying a concealed handgun but I don't see where they have to provide it or even show it to a LEO on request. Is elsewhere in the ORC, or am I just missing it? In either case, can you provide a cite?
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
And that is the question. I've read ORC 2923.12 many times and I still don't know the answer. :(
2923.12 (A)(2) says


And 2923.12 (C) (2) says

Does that make a CHL a defense to the crime of CCW? I can see where it might, but I could also see where it might not.

To me, "does not apply" means that having the license makes the commission of the crime impossible. IANAL, but my take is that the officer has to have both reasonable suspicion that you are carrying concealed AND reasonable suspicion that you don't have a license to stop you. However as MWSY and I both said, openly carry and make the point moot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
Who cares what your book says? You don't know spit about Ohio law.

I only deal with US laws ... not places where a cop can just look at you driving and get a speeding conviction solely on the basis of a wild guess as to how fast one was going.
 

eye95

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I only deal with US laws ... not places where a cop can just look at you driving and get a speeding conviction solely on the basis of a wild guess as to how fast one was going.

Well, we adults are discussing OHIO law. So you might want to butt out.
 
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eye95

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So, what is the RAS that one who is concealing does NOT HAVE A CHL?

Exactly. IANAL, but, to me, the clear meaning of the law is that BOTH the gun must be concealed AND the carrier must not have a CHL for the act to be a crime. Therefore, the officer must have RAS of both elements to have RAS of the crime. Again, IANAL. We have at least one poster here is is an Ohio attorney. I'd love to hear his take on it.
 

Werz

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Aug 2, 2012
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301
Location
Northeast Ohio
Exactly. IANAL, but, to me, the clear meaning of the law is that BOTH the gun must be concealed AND the carrier must not have a CHL for the act to be a crime. Therefore, the officer must have RAS of both elements to have RAS of the crime. Again, IANAL. We have at least one poster here is is an Ohio attorney. I'd love to hear his take on it.
We can "spitball" this all we want, but until an Ohio appellate court rules on the issue, there is no clear answer.

How is an appellate court most likely to respond? Let's look first at the statute. The initial presumption is that carrying a concealed handgun is bad. R.C. 2923.12(A)(2). That presumption is followed by a number of exceptions where carrying a concealed handgun is OK. R.C 2923.12(C). While that is not dispositive, it does have significant meaning.

Now, let's look at a case that is well known to many of us: United States v. Black, 707 F.3d 531 (4th Cir. 2013). The U.S. Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals stated: "nder the laws of North Carolina, which permit its residents to openly carry firearms, *** Troupe's gun was legally possessed and displayed. *** [W]here a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention." Id. at 540. The government had argued that "officers could not know whether Troupe was lawfully in possession of the gun until they performed a records check[,]" but the Court countered - and here's the really important part - that "eing a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status." Id.

OK. Let's apply that rule by analogy. Although there may be constitutional provisions for highly structured checkpoints to assure that motor vehicle operators are properly licensed, generally, a police officer may not stop any driver simply to determine if he or she is licensed. By the same token, in Ohio, the vast majority of the population (7.6 million out of 11.5 million) is licensed to operate a motor vehicle. Conversely, there are only about 300,000 Ohioans who are licensed to carry a concealed handgun. Therefore, amongst the general population, licensure to operate a motor vehicle is clearly the default, while licensure to carry a concealed handgun clearly is not.

Finally, let's mix all these facts up and forget about concealment. Open carry of a firearm in Ohio is lawful for anyone not prohibited to possess a firearm. Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default. See Black, supra. However, open carry of a firearm in a D-permit liquor premises is permitted only if you have a concealed handgun license. If you decide to openly carry a firearm into your favorite D-permit restaurant, what happens when a uniformed police officer approaches you and says, "Sir, may I see your concealed handgun license?" Are you going to refuse? Really?! How do you think an Ohio court is going to come down on that issue?

Think about it.
 

BriKuz

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201
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Springfield, MO
I only deal with US laws ... not places where a cop can just look at you driving and get a speeding conviction solely on the basis of a wild guess as to how fast one was going.

if you want to deal with US laws, stay out of the Ohio forum... your brainless prattling adds nothing to the discussion... go DO something... in YOUR state...

Gawd, constantly trolling the very people you claim to work with... isn't there a Komifornia or Ill-inois forum to whine in?
 

shaun

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
56
Location
Fountain CO
Ranting on all this ID crap

Buy beer? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Buy Smokes? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Get pulled over for speeding? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Cash a check? Show ID, yet we don't complain
In for a drug test? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Taking out a car loan? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Mortgage? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Purchasing a gun? Show ID, yet we don't complain

Have a gun and law enforcement asks for us to show ID and then becomes "Infringing on my rights!"

I for one grow tired of this whole ID thing. Yeah, flame me, ignore me, whatever.

JUST GIVE EM YOUR F'n ID

Ok, I'm done.
 

davidmcbeth

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Messages
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earth's crust
if you want to deal with US laws, stay out of the Ohio forum... your brainless prattling adds nothing to the discussion... go DO something... in YOUR state...

Gawd, constantly trolling the very people you claim to work with... isn't there a Komifornia or Ill-inois forum to whine in?

Blah blah blah .. your and eye should get a room.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Ranting on all this ID crap

Buy beer? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Buy Smokes? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Get pulled over for speeding? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Cash a check? Show ID, yet we don't complain
In for a drug test? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Taking out a car loan? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Mortgage? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Purchasing a gun? Show ID, yet we don't complain

Have a gun and law enforcement asks for us to show ID and then becomes "Infringing on my rights!"

I for one grow tired of this whole ID thing. Yeah, flame me, ignore me, whatever.

JUST GIVE EM YOUR F'n ID

Ok, I'm done.

I guess you don't see the difference between a lawful request for an ID to prove age or identity and an unlawful request for papers-please during an unlawful stop by an agent of the state.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Ranting on all this ID crap

Buy beer? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Buy Smokes? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Get pulled over for speeding? Show ID, yet we don't complain...
I must have missed the parts where any of your "examples" contained mention of the exercise of RIGHTS.

Maybe you can clear that up for us? :rolleyes:
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Buy beer? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Buy Smokes? Show ID, yet we don't complain

WTF? Speak for yourself. I will walk away rather than show government-issued ID to buy alcohol 95% of the time, and I make a stink the other 5%. (A majority of the time I'm never questioned at all – and no, I don't look over 45.)

Get pulled over for speeding? Show ID, yet we don't complain

You're right. It would be redundant, as I was probably just complaining about the mere existence of drivers' licensure.

Cash a check? Show ID, yet we don't complain

Bank card + pin

In for a drug test? Show ID, yet we don't complain

You can thank government subsidy for this little assault on freedom.

Taking out a car loan? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Mortgage? Show ID, yet we don't complain

This is not necessarily true; however, these are voluntary transactions.

Purchasing a gun? Show ID, yet we don't complain

Only when buying from an FFL, and this is by Federal mandate. Complaint would be redundant, as I complain about the mere existence of the FFL system (see above).

Have a gun and law enforcement asks for us to show ID and then becomes "Infringing on my rights!"

You're damn right.
 
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JustaShooter

Regular Member
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Jul 26, 2013
Messages
728
Location
NE Ohio
Buy beer? Show ID, yet we don't complain
Buy Smokes? Show ID, yet we don't complain
WTF? Speak for yourself. I will walk away rather than show government-issued ID to buy alcohol 95% of the time, and I make a stink the other 5%. (A majority of the time I'm never questioned at all.)
Good replies to each, well said.
As to the quoted point, back when I did purchase cigarettes and alcohol it was a rare thing to be asked for ID, and inevitably it was by someone who barely looked old enough to have graduated high school. As I would stare them in the eyes and object, they would typically squeak out "company policy!" to which I'd reply along the lines of if you can't tell I'm old enough to buy these they you aren't likely old enough to sell them to me. (The state I lived in at the time had laws about who could sell as well as buy.) Generally didn't have any problems after that exchange.

The last time I can recall being asked for ID it was after the advent of computerized cash registers and the cashier actually told me she had to swipe my DL into the cash register to get the cash register to allow me to buy a pack of cigarettes. After refusing and speaking to the manager, who confirmed this, I suggested that if they wanted my business in the future they could either ring up the sale as something else thus bypassing the ID requirement or they could swipe their own ID. The manager swiped his DL and I never had any trouble at that store afterward.

Bottom line is that there are few things that actually require you to show ID but many they will try to get you to do so if you don't object.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
We can "spitball" this all we want, but until an Ohio appellate court rules on the issue, there is no clear answer.

Well, there's the problem, then.

If the wind blows your jacket open and a cop sees the CCd gun, he's got a wide field to claim he reasonably suspected an offense--carrying a concealed handgun.

Police are well known for stretching the limits, finding every loophole, and even creating a few loopholes. For example, how many reports do we have of police demanding identity merely so they could verify the OCer was not a felon in possession? Dozens?

Unless Fourth Amendment case law clearly protects you, its open to police interpretation. And, later, your trial judge's interpretation at the suppression hearing. And, if his ruling goes against you, then you're going to end up paying for an appeal.

In a way, when it comes to rights and police, it ain't a right unless a court has already said so. In a sense, until a court says so, your rights are whatever the police say they are.

So, to answer the OPs question, yes a cop can compel identity if he thinks he can. And, he may be right, retroactively, if it ends up in court.
 
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