Manual safety on a Glock?

Put a external safety on a Glock?

I thought that is what the brain is for...

OC for ME said:

The GI 1911A1 grip safety is supposed to disengage at ~2 oz. of applied pressure if my Navy training does not fail me. The proper grip of the pistol ensures that the grip safety is disengaged. The grip safety is to be repaired if the trigger can be pulled when gravity disengages the grip safety, there is a test for this in the Army TM 9-1005-211-12, I think.

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Probably most ND's that happen with a 1911 happen while the frame is being gripped. Might be the reason many semi auto makers do not use a grip safety. There is none on my Star Super, I am very comfortable with carrying the gun that it will not ND. Carried a S&W M39 for years with no ND's and no grip safety. Personally I don't need a grip safety. When the safety is on a 1911 the hammer cannot make contact with the firing pin, there is cutout in the hammer that the block for the sear rests in. Even if the sear fails the hammer will only go forward enough to bind in the cutout.

WalkingWolf said:

Probably most ND's that happen with a 1911 happen while the frame is being gripped. Might be the reason many semi auto makers do not use a grip safety. There is none on my Star Super, I am very comfortable with carrying the gun that it will not ND. Carried a S&W M39 for years with no ND's and no grip safety. Personally I don't need a grip safety. When the safety is on a 1911 the hammer cannot make contact with the firing pin, there is cutout in the hammer that the block for the sear rests in. Even if the sear fails the hammer will only go forward enough to bind in the cutout.

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Got a XD for the very reason that it has a grip safety. Just a bit more work for very small hands to actuate. But, the grip safety, as you correctly point out, requires extra diligence to be sure a ND does not occur.

SouthernBoy said:

Actually the Glock is a true DAO pistol and is deemed so by both Glock and the ATF. I once called Glock and spoke to a tech about this very thing to settle an argument with someone. Keep in mind what the term means.

Action types always and only describe what tasks a trigger performs. It has nothing to do with the firing mechanism; i.e. striker or hammer. With the Glock, the trigger is a two stage unit. It first completes the cocking of the striker (action #1) and then releases that striker to fire a cartridge (action #2). It does this and nothing else, hence the DAO designation.

The M&P (and XD) is an anomaly of a kind, or hybrid in its operation. The striker is held in a fully cocked condition and all the trigger does is release the striker to fire the gun. The sear is a rocker design, kind of like a seesaw, which is moved upward on the forward end by the trigger bar cam, which in turn lowers it on the other end to free the striker. Technically this should be a SAO designation but there isn't such a term so Smith and Wesson call it a DAO pistol. Same with the XD.

None of these three pistol designs have second strike capability. Two sample DAO pistols that do are the Ruger LCP and the Kel-Tec P11. Both are hammer fired and both do have second strike capability.

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I know it's picking nits here, but if Glock is DAO, then what happens after a misfire? If it's a DAO, the trigger would have to be capable of re-cocking the action (which ever action you are talking about) without the need to accomplish a second task. Like the LCP and others that can cock the action every time you pull the trigger. Hence, double action ONLY. We all know the 2 actions that need to be accomplished, cocking the action and releasing the action. But that's not the case in the Glock. With a misfire, you can't re-cock the action on the Glock using the trigger. So that's not a double action at that point. That being the case, it can't be called a DA Only. At best it's a mish-mash of DA and SA.

The fact that you called Glock and they called it a DAO is sort of meaningless because by your very next paragraph you say that S&W and XD also call theirs DAO. Theirs are more closely associated with SAO as you said than a Glock is to DAO. For that matter, the ATF defines a pistol with a vertical fore grip as a short barreled rifle. So no offense, but they aren't exactly the go to point for proper definitions of anything. Maybe legal definitions, but certainly not accurate ones.

Honestly, I personally think it's antiquated to use revolver based terms in talking about semi-auto pistols. They don't really fit well no matter what firearm you're talking about.

mobiushky said:

I know it's picking nits here, but if Glock is DAO, then what happens after a misfire? If it's a DAO, the trigger would have to be capable of re-cocking the action (which ever action you are talking about) without the need to accomplish a second task. Like the LCP and others that can cock the action every time you pull the trigger. Hence, double action ONLY. We all know the 2 actions that need to be accomplished, cocking the action and releasing the action. But that's not the case in the Glock. With a misfire, you can't re-cock the action on the Glock using the trigger. So that's not a double action at that point. That being the case, it can't be called a DA Only. At best it's a mish-mash of DA and SA.

The fact that you called Glock and they called it a DAO is sort of meaningless because by your very next paragraph you say that S&W and XD also call theirs DAO. Theirs are more closely associated with SAO as you said than a Glock is to DAO. For that matter, the ATF defines a pistol with a vertical fore grip as a short barreled rifle. So no offense, but they aren't exactly the go to point for proper definitions of anything. Maybe legal definitions, but certainly not accurate ones.

Honestly, I personally think it's antiquated to use revolver based terms in talking about semi-auto pistols. They don't really fit well no matter what firearm you're talking about.

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As I mentioned, the action type is based solely upon the tasks performed by the trigger. I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree a little on this one.

SouthernBoy said:

As I mentioned, the action type is based solely upon the tasks performed by the trigger. I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree a little on this one.

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I understand that. And that's fine. But it is true that the "task" of the Glock trigger does not always and only cock the striker AND release it. In some cases it cannot cock the striker which kind of prevents of from being a double action only. The case I mentioned is example of why the Glock is not a double action only in the classic sense because in the event of the misfire or a failure of the slide to lock back on an empty mag or any other of a few cases the trigger cannot cock the striker. That's a fundamental requirement of the double action only definition because it can only function as a double action. But in this case the task performed by the trigger is single action.

At best you could call it a 80% DA/20% SA. Or whatever percentages you want to use to explain it.

(I know I'm harping, and it's not personal really, I just have thoughts that pop up that I have to get out.) That very fact is one of the drawbacks that some people cite about Glocks. The fact that on a misfire you cannot simply pull the trigger again in case you had a light strike. You have to rack the slide (ejecting the round) in order to reset the trigger.

We can agree to disagree and I have no ill feelings what so ever because you did correct me on the XD and S&W which I appreciate. But the fact is, it's not accurate to call the Glock a DAO. It can be misleading to people who are expecting something like the action of the LCP/LC9.

Oh and another thought just hit me. When the slide cycles on the Glock, the striker is held cocked unless you completely release the trigger. If you hold the trigger as you should, the reset is very short and does not re-cock the striker. Which means as soon as you fire the first round, it switches to single action because the trigger's only task at that point is to release the striker. Unlike the LCP which has to be completely recycled as a double action after each shot because the slide doesn't re-cock the striker. Sorry, I know this probably just makes it seem more harpy, I just had to get that out.

SouthernBoy said:

None of my carry guns have externally settable safeties and that's for a very good reason. In the event that I need to use my sidearm, all I want to do is "pull and pull" (pull the gun and pull the trigger). I do not want to have to concern myself with an external safety in an extreme encounter. The Glock design is fine as is in my opinion.

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eye95 said:

The best safety is the one with which everyone is equipped, but most fail to use.

The one between your ears.

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+1 to both posts.

If you are carrying a holster gun and not a purse gun why have that extra step, if you need it grab it and squeeze.

sudden valley gunner said:

+1 to both posts.

If you are carrying a holster gun and not a purse gun why have that extra step, if you need it grab it and squeeze.

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It's really not an extra step.

I mean, what you describe would put a bullet right in the floor.

You neglected present in there: draw, present, fire.

Flipping the safety off (of a 1911) during presentation doesn't qualify as an "extra step" (since it takes less time than presentation which it is performed during), and it's impossible to forget (safety basically comes off by itself when you assume a "thumb high" grip, because it's in the way of your thumb when engaged) and even harder to screw up.

Note on a 1911 I strongly prefer an extended thumb safety for this reason. The GI style doesn't really get in the way of your thumb like that, and it's finicky to flip off too boot.

mobiushky said:

I understand that. And that's fine. But it is true that the "task" of the Glock trigger does not always and only cock the striker AND release it. In some cases it cannot cock the striker which kind of prevents of from being a double action only. The case I mentioned is example of why the Glock is not a double action only in the classic sense because in the event of the misfire or a failure of the slide to lock back on an empty mag or any other of a few cases the trigger cannot cock the striker. That's a fundamental requirement of the double action only definition because it can only function as a double action. But in this case the task performed by the trigger is single action.

At best you could call it a 80% DA/20% SA. Or whatever percentages you want to use to explain it.

(I know I'm harping, and it's not personal really, I just have thoughts that pop up that I have to get out.) That very fact is one of the drawbacks that some people cite about Glocks. The fact that on a misfire you cannot simply pull the trigger again in case you had a light strike. You have to rack the slide (ejecting the round) in order to reset the trigger.

We can agree to disagree and I have no ill feelings what so ever because you did correct me on the XD and S&W which I appreciate. But the fact is, it's not accurate to call the Glock a DAO. It can be misleading to people who are expecting something like the action of the LCP/LC9.

Oh and another thought just hit me. When the slide cycles on the Glock, the striker is held cocked unless you completely release the trigger. If you hold the trigger as you should, the reset is very short and does not re-cock the striker. Which means as soon as you fire the first round, it switches to single action because the trigger's only task at that point is to release the striker. Unlike the LCP which has to be completely recycled as a double action after each shot because the slide doesn't re-cock the striker. Sorry, I know this probably just makes it seem more harpy, I just had to get that out.

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Excellent point! It is the end of the cruciform, which just happens to be the sear, that both partially and fully cocks the striker. When firing from reset, which most train to do, the striker is indeed, held in a fully cocked position and at that point, the trigger only releases the striker. Good catch and excellent point.

marshaul said:

It's really not an extra step.

I mean, what you describe would put a bullet right in the floor.

You neglected present in there: draw, present, fire.

Flipping the safety off (of a 1911) during presentation doesn't qualify as an "extra step" (since it takes less time than presentation which it is performed during), and it's impossible to forget (safety basically comes off by itself when you assume a "thumb high" grip, because it's in the way of your thumb when engaged) and even harder to screw up.

Note on a 1911 I strongly prefer an extended thumb safety for this reason. The GI style doesn't really get in the way of your thumb like that, and it's finicky to flip off too boot.

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See what happens when I try to be succinct....

For those that train and use one with a safety muscle memory would pretty much erase the "extra step", I don't shoot that often and carry a Glock so I don't think the instinct/muscle memory is there for me.