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Thread: Student that has a Gun Control Project

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    Student that has a Gun Control Project

    Hey guys! I currently have a project in Sociology about Gun Control. I started it and ran out of ideas, and figured you all would know best! It is a 14 slide project (On powerpoint) and i am SUPPORTING states that allow either open or concealed carry and AGAINST states not letting guns be outside the homes. I just need some information about why guns should be allowed to carry around. Thanks!

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    Which part of "shall not be infringed" is unclear?

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
    Perhaps less familiar is this statement of natural rights

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    The right of defense of self and of life is integral to the unalienable Right to Life.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-16-2013 at 06:48 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    What...? I dont understand

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    He's referring to the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    What...? I dont understand
    By whom are guns allowed to be carried? Who grants your permission? Who would deny your ability to carry a gun around?

    Your Creator made defense of self a right inherent to humanity.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Do your own research. Formulate your own conclusions. May I suggest starting by reading More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott?

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    Ahhhh i see. I understand now. And yes ive been doing research all over the place. I have only come up with about 4 slides. 1. Whos the real threat (The person or Gun) 2. What is Gun Control 3. People will second guess attacking someone knowing they can carry and 4. What do I believe

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Check out a pamphlet by David Barton titled appropriately: The Second Amendment. He lays out the true meaning as understood by the people who wrote it.... with quotes and cites. Lays down the argument against those who claim a generalized or collective Right.

    Also fun to note... many states (including my state of Virginia) passed laws that made it a crime to NOT carry a firearm at all times.. well before the independence war. You had to have one on you and one in the house or you would get in trouble upon the discovery of you violating this law to be armed at all times.

    It sends the whole group of "only have the right in your own home" people for a loop.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    Hey guys! I currently have a project in Sociology about Gun Control. I started it and ran out of ideas, and figured you all would know best! It is a 14 slide project (On powerpoint) and i am SUPPORTING states that allow either open or concealed carry and AGAINST states not letting guns be outside the homes. I just need some information about why guns should be allowed to carry around. Thanks!
    There really is no means testing required. We have a natural right to defend ourselves from aggressors, whoever they may be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    2. What is Gun Control 3.
    Just another control.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Check out a pamphlet by David Barton titled appropriately: The Second Amendment. He lays out the true meaning as understood by the people who wrote it.... with quotes and cites. Lays down the argument against those who claim a generalized or collective Right.

    Also fun to note... many states (including my state of Virginia) passed laws that made it a crime to NOT carry a firearm at all times.. well before the independence war. You had to have one on you and one in the house or you would get in trouble upon the discovery of you violating this law to be armed at all times.

    It sends the whole group of "only have the right in your own home" people for a loop.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Wow thats crazy i didnt know that. I will definitely be including that in one of my slides !

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Couple of suggestions that will floor the class.

    One, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect the individual. Reference Castle Rock v. Gonzales. SCOTUS ruled that the police were not duty bound to protect the lives of Ms. Gonzales' children after they were killed by their estranged father. Gonzales informed the police of numerous threats made by the man including a direct threat to her life. There's more, but it's a start that you can expand on for your class.

    Two, OC vs CC, ignoring the tacticalicity* arguments on either side, SCOTUS ruled in Heller v. DC that the 2A does not infer a right to concealed carry. Later, the 10th court expanded on the ruling by outright claiming that concealed carry is not a protected right under 2A. No cases have negated that ruling to date and so it is the precedent. (That was Peterson v. Martinez I believe.)

    third possible, discuss 911 wait times and police response versus length of the average crime.

    Not to be a jerk, but the research part is on you as it is a class assignment and I'm not gonna do your homework for you without some lunch money kick back...

    *tacticalicity is not a real word, so don't use it.

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    Regular Member ScottFree's Avatar
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    Ok, lets keep telling him to do his own research, but, isn't that what he is doing?

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    FERIC, have you started out with the comparison of crime rate before and after both of the laxing of gun laws and the hardening of gun infringement.

    you will quickly notice the jump in states that make guns less for honest citizens and the decrease in crimes where the gun laws were weakened

    good examples are the comparison of Kennsaw GA and kennsaw IL. the decrease of FL crimes when they got their concealed carry permits allowed.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Another angle is to highlight the illogic behind gun control.

    For example, a young woman is taken hostage or kidnapped. The police SWAT team is called to the scene. They try to talk the criminal into releasing the woman unharmed, but after that fails and he threatens to kill the woman, they storm the place and shoot the criminal.

    So, how did that young woman's life suddenly become worth saving only after the police arrived? If her life was worth saving after she was kidnapped, she must have been worth saving at the instant of kidnap. Gun control illogic says her life isn't valuable enough to let her defend herself in the moment of the attack, but after the attack her life is suddenly so valuable that police try to save her.

    And, this goes deeper. Gun control illogic says that individuals are so worthless they must not be able to protect themselves during an attack; but, individuals are so valuable we must spend billions on police and a criminal justice system.

    How can this be? It can't.

    You can also extend this to society. A somewhat common gun-control theme is protecting "society." Why? If an individual's life is so worthless as to deny him the ability to protect himself in the moment of attack, society cannot be any more valuable. Aggregating individuals doesn't increase their worth. If you start with a bunch of worthless individuals and aggregate them, you just have a bunch of worthless individuals. You cannot possibly aquire greater value just by lumping them together.

    One of these days, when I hear an anti-gun rights comment, I'll remember to ask, "So, you want to do away with police and the courts?" "Huh?" "Well, if individuals are so worthless as to not let them defend themselves, you can't possibly justify the vast expense of police and courts to protect worthless people."
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-16-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottFree View Post
    Ok, lets keep telling him to do his own research, but, isn't that what he is doing?
    Yes and no. He's asking for input which is great. But he can't exactly quote "some forum on guns" as a source right?

    Plus, if we simply give him all the info, how does he learn it himself? Isn't he just memorizing what he's told?

    I actually gave a few court cases to look up and learn from. Which is not a bad start I think.

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    well,,,,,,,

    David Kopel is a great source, he does alot of numbers, alot of history.

    the FBI uniform crime reports (whenever you see a news commentator reference crime statistics, it's nearly ALWAYS the FBI uniform crime reports)
    are available on the web, and will show a general trend of declining crime.

    Some general things I would look to include in such a presentation are

    >brief overview of history of arms regulation, such as that concealed carry has been regulated for centuries whereas open carry has generally been lawful
    >the racist nature of early gun control laws
    >Washington state goes shall issue in 1961, being the first state to do so. and the prelude to the right to carry movement
    >Bernie Goetz, in 1984 shoots and injures 4 attackers on a New York City subway with an illegally carried S&W revolver, is acquitted of all charges except for carrying a concealed weapon, this jumpstarts the right to carry movement, showing a general resentment towards criminals in that era
    >Florida goes shall issue in 1987, beginning the modern shall issue and right to carry movement. Florida's law (unlike Washington's) requires training for a CHL and is widely emulated.
    >1994, assault weapons ban passed at federal level, but not all was bad for gun rights that year, again, a resentment of crime in general leads to numerous new laws, including three strikes, mandatory minimum sentencing, along with new laws allowing concealed carry and shall issue licenses.

    several other things useful

    >The myth of the collective right
    intellectuals and college instructors often espouse the idea that the second amendment only protects a right to own guns connected to service in the military, they base this on Miller v. United States, and in fact Miller never says that.
    of the 40 or so states with constitutional right to bear arms in their state constitutions, every single one references an individual right to own arms, Nunn v Georgia in the 1840s before the Georgia Supreme Court determined that the 2nd amendment guaranteed a right to own arms individualy.

    >Dred Scott v Sanford, in the infamous decision denying black people citizenship and upholding slavery, Justice Taney writes that blacks cannot be citizens because "people of the African American race would have the right to keep and carry arms wherever they went" this is connected to racist roots in gun control


    this should be enough of a primer to give you an idea of what to look for for information and some google searches you can make.

    good luck on your project!
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 10-16-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Also fun to note... many states (including my state of Virginia) passed laws that made it a crime to NOT carry a firearm at all times.. well before the independence war. You had to have one on you and one in the house or you would get in trouble upon the discovery of you violating this law to be armed at all times.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    If this was pre-Revolutionary War, it was when VA was the Proprietary of the Fairfaxes. After Geo Washington, the surveyor of Blue Ridge & Alleghenies started the French & Indian War in 1751, the French stirred up the indians to raid and kill settlers west of the Blue Ridge mountains. Would expect those not having guns in their homes w/b burned and killed and wanting government assistance for defense. In calling up the Militia at the request of Gov Dinwiddie, Geo Washington found most settlers were very short on military type guns of the day (as well as food, able bodied men, wagons, horses, ammunition) this handicapped his ability to protect the frontier from Winchester to North Carolina/Georgia. These lessons learned by young GW were crucial in his being able to effectively command what he developed into the Continental Army for the Rev War. You can reference this in Wm Southall Freeman's definitive series on GW - 7 volumes published around 1940-50s - s/b in your school's reference library.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
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    Just read all your responses, and Wow! Thanks so much. You all gave me so many options and facts. I honestly have learned a lot from these posts, but will definitely be researching all of it. I never knew more than half of this stuff, i really appreciate it. I started my project today and will add on to it with this information tomorrow!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    Just read all your responses, and Wow! Thanks so much. You all gave me so many options and facts. I honestly have learned a lot from these posts, but will definitely be researching all of it. I never knew more than half of this stuff, i really appreciate it. I started my project today and will add on to it with this information tomorrow!
    I'm sure you'll get an A+.

    Project due tomorrow .. start working on it a 8pm the evening before.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    One of the best books on the topic is "That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right" by Stephen Halbrook. Excellent research and irrefutable as a solid source.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    <snip> I just need some information about why guns should be allowed to carry around. Thanks!
    A right, the 2A, can not be infringed, your question should be phrased from a individual liberty perspective "What authority does government have to infringe upon your right to bear arms?" Government granting itself the authority in clear violation of the Constitution does not count. If you give credence to that premise, that government can grant itself the power to infringe, then the Constitution and thus individual rights evaporate and we are England and have nothing but privileges granted to us by Parliament.

    Think liberty first and the answers to your anti-gun question are made clear. Rephrase your question, as i have suggested above, and you will receive a 'F' because you dared question the "state."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Excellent research and irrefutable as a solid source.
    Hmm, where have I heard that before, "irrefutable"? Oh yeah, Anthropogenic Global Warming, a.k.a manmade glow-bull warning, is irrefutable as attested to by 97% of scientists.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    Ahhhh i see. I understand now. And yes ive been doing research all over the place. I have only come up with about 4 slides. 1. Whos the real threat (The person or Gun) 2. What is Gun Control 3. People will second guess attacking someone knowing they can carry and 4. What do I believe
    i would throw this in...... when people talk about gun control, you start hearing about self defense, hunting etc. Well, you don't need 30 bullets in a magazine to hunt, your pistol should only hold 7 rounds etc. The 2nd Amendment was not created for individual defense or hunting but for defense of the nation.

    i saw a great quote a few months ago, it had obama saying "no american needs an assault rifle" and in the second picture it had obama "we're sending assault rifles to Syrians to help them overcome a tyrannical government" Pretty ironic.

    I'm also not advocating for any action against our government just want to point out the purpose of the second amendment. People need government as much as government needs people.
    Last edited by Kopis; 10-17-2013 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FEric View Post
    Ahhhh i see. I understand now. And yes ive been doing research all over the place. I have only come up with about 4 slides. 1. Whos the real threat (The person or Gun) 2. What is Gun Control 3. People will second guess attacking someone knowing they can carry and 4. What do I believe
    Are you going to discuss the racial discrimination history of gun control?

    What? You did not know that gun control laws (going back all the way to 1621) were designed to prevent racial minorities (and not just Blacks) from having access to firearms? While no longer so specifically focused on race, gun control is still about keeping "those people" from having firearms. Just ask Mayor Bloomberg why he opposes machine guns - except for his bodyguards!

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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