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Thread: so what did republican accomplish with this latest kabuki theater ?

  1. #1
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    so what did republican accomplish with this latest kabuki theater ?

    nothing.

    they lost the policy battle and they lost the PR battle.

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    Helped my party !

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    They're paving the way for the Libertarian Party to take over as the new right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    They're paving the way for the Libertarian Party to take over as the new right?
    Many people don't like everything the L. party platform covers (abortion & drug use especially) ; I don't like the abortion aspect but other than that, I'm happy with the party platforms. If they want to get broader, they'll have to drop the pro-abortion aspect.

    If a good constitution party is established I would consider switching ... the Tea Party is OK but it does nothing really in respect to abortion issues.

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    I am a former Republican but I stopped supporting them in 2005.

    I am a pretty solid Libertarian now.

    Republicans are pretty much losers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    I am a former Republican but I stopped supporting them in 2005.

    I am a pretty solid Libertarian now.

    Republicans are pretty much losers.
    Me too but switched in about 1998 ...

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    "Green Eggs and Ham" was read into the Congressional Record. That will be Cruz's legacy.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Many people don't like everything the L. party platform covers (abortion & drug use especially) ; I don't like the abortion aspect but other than that, I'm happy with the party platforms. If they want to get broader, they'll have to drop the pro-abortion aspect.

    If a good constitution party is established I would consider switching ... the Tea Party is OK but it does nothing really in respect to abortion issues.
    I didn't think there was an official abortion position.

    There are many that are pro choice and many that find it detestable.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    nothing. they lost the policy battle and they lost the PR battle.
    "Lost the battle, lost the war!" Where have I heard that before? Hmmm...
    She don't want to talk about it any more, What for, lost the battle, lost the War. The Old Man, The Old General, the Old Warrior, He was lost without a War, With his fists clenched, and his medals in his sock drawer. http://www.soniadada.com/albums/secr.../green2k4.html
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Many people don't like everything the L. party platform covers (abortion & drug use especially) ; I don't like the abortion aspect but other than that, I'm happy with the party platforms. If they want to get broader, they'll have to drop the pro-abortion aspect.

    If a good constitution party is established I would consider switching ... the Tea Party is OK but it does nothing really in respect to abortion issues.
    The Libertarian party is not pro-abortion. Abortion is the only significant topic that I have found that the Libertarian party is divided on. On just about every other topic there is a hard and fast position. Some Libertarians believe the fetus is endowed with all rights and therefore abortion is wrong, and other Libertarians feel that the rights of the fetus (whatever they may be) don't trump the rights of the mother to control her body. The Libertarian position is thus that government should simply stay out of the abortion issue completely - and that includes any subsidies for it, etc.

    So if you want government to prohibit abortion and have a politician tell a woman when and under what circumstances she can decide what her body does and doesn't get used for, then that would be at odds with the Libertarian position. If you think abortion is wrong, teach your children that abortion is wrong, etc., then you'd hold the same position as a lot of Libertarians.

    That said, if drugs and abortion are the only two topics that you fail to see eye-to-eye with the Libertarians, that's not too bad vs. the other choices. Certainly there are likely many points of disagreement with either of the two currently-controlling parties. Significantly the Republicans (and their appointed judges and justices) tend to be law-and-order to the point of stomping all over the 4th and 5th amendment at nearly every opportunity.

    With Libertarians you shouldn't ever need to concern yourself with the government doing something to you that you don't like. It sounds like your only area of concern is that you want the government to do something to some people (women seeking abortions).

    In my opinion the Republicans are just as much big-government Nazis as the Democrats, they just want a different big government and want to rule your personal life in a different way than the Democrats do.

    If you want a government controlled by a party that doesn't want to rule you, your only choice is really the Libertarians (as I see it).

    Link to Libertarian Party Platform: http://www.lp.org/platform

    Copy/paste of abortion platform:
    1.4 Abortion
    Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
    Last edited by BrianB; 10-17-2013 at 09:07 AM.

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    Hmmm, so it falls to "pro-life anti-feticide" or "pro-choice anti-life", all decided by infallible individuals, God-like, progressing FORWARD! into the future.
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    Regular Member Black_water's Avatar
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    Nothing positive, just kicked the can down the road.

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    The Constitution Party and its Platform

    http://www.constitutionparty.org/
    We declare the platform of the Constitution Party to be predicated on the principles of

    THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE,

    THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES,

    AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS

    according to the original intent of the Founding Fathers. These founding documents are the foundation of our Liberty and the Supreme Law of the Land.

    The sole purpose of government, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, is to secure our unalienable rights given us by our Creator. When Government grows beyond this scope, it is usurpation, and liberty is compromised.

    We believe the major issues we face today are best solved by a renewed allegiance to the original intent of these founding documents.
    http://www.constitutionparty.org/Our...7/Default.aspx

    http://www.constitutionparty.org/Por...%20Version.pdf

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consti...es%29#Platform
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    My beef with the CP is all the social conservatism, which I do not view as the proper purview of government.

    For instance:

    We... affirm the rights of states and localities to proscribe offensive sexual behavior.
    You gotta love this bit of doublespeak:

    No civil government may legitimately authorize or define marriage or family relations, as affirmed by the 10th amendment, delegating to the people as our founders understood the family as necessary to the general welfare.

    ...

    The law of our Creator defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman. The marriage covenant is the foundation of the family, and the family is fundamental in the maintenance of a stable, healthy and prosperous social order. No government may legitimately authorize or define marriage or family relations contrary to what God has instituted.
    Government shall not define marriage... unless it's our definition!

    Due to a lack of prosecution, the sexually oriented business industry has proliferated, aggravating the problems of child pornography, human trafficking and sexually transmitted diseases. This is decreasing our safety by increasing crime rates, specifically rape and molestation in additional to the loss of dignity belonging to all human beings.

    We call on our local, state and federal governments to uphold our First Amendment right to free speech by vigorously enforcing all laws against obscenity.
    Help us defend free speech by giving us the power to decide what is "speech", and prohibiting the rest!


    Also, I am immensely opposed to the following:

    We favor more vigorous efforts in both domestic and foreign markets to protect the interests of owners in their copyrights and patents.
    This is an endeavor I will oppose in every way until my dying day. Imaginary property is dead letter in all but the minds of lawyers and statists.


    The CP is good on most other issues, but then their positions are similar to the LP on nearly all of those issues.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Some citizens desire the government to have a role in the abortion issue. How does the LP reconcile this?

    The LP does not address monopolies other than the government monopoly. Some citizens desire the government to have a role in private sector monopolies.

    The LP platform is far more conducive to restoring liberty than the Republican party without question.

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    Regular Member Sir Diealotz's Avatar
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    Re-affirmed that they still have no spine

    I used to be registered repub but now I'm registered Independent.

    90% of them are only out to better themselves. Rand Paul 2016
    Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    The current political climate will never change, regardless of party, until 1) this country gets big money out of politics completely and 2) media outlets stop kowtowing to politicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The CP is good on most other issues, but then their positions are similar to the LP on nearly all of those issues.
    Yes, a good razor of progressivism from conservativism. Thank you.

    Again, progressives would live without the restraint of laws they find unpleasant.
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  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Some citizens desire the government to have a role in the abortion issue. How does the LP reconcile this?
    Some citizens desire the government to have a role in legislating morality, and aggressing against their fellow citizens for harmless acts such as drug use or owning guns.

    How does the LP reconcile this?

    The LP does not address monopolies other than the government monopoly. Some citizens desire the government to have a role in private sector monopolies.
    That's not really true. I'm not sure if this is anywhere in the party platform per se, but any libertarian in practice would point out that the overwhelming majority of monopolies have been either handed out directly by government (Bell, anyone?), or have been built up through a feedback loop wherein, as a business grows, its ability to lobby government grows concomitantly, it can then use this influence to harm its competitors, thereby increasing its own size and influence, so it can lobby for yet more benefits... etc etc etc.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Railroad barons, steel magnates....

    http://www.american-rails.com/railroad-tycoons.html

    Mind you, monopolies are not a bad thing from free market perspective, academically speaking. That is how you get filthy stinking rich, and who does not want to be the richest guy. But, any monopoly can be bad if the "baron" does not have the best interest of their customer in mind. The barons did not. Government has gone far beyond regulating for the safety of the consumer only. Some government is good as long as government sticks to what is should do, resolve issues between free market participants when a resolution can not be had peaceably.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Railroad barons, steel magnates....
    I see. So is it your position that the Federal government did not, for example, subsidize railroads with per-mile subsidies and land grants?



    It's quite a myth that government was uninvolved in these industries until it decided to step in and heroically save the day from evil, lurking industrialist robber barons.

    Mind you, monopolies are not a bad thing from free market perspective, academically speaking.
    I disagree. Monopoly implies an absence of functioning competition, and competition (along with supply, and demand) is one of the primary driving forces by which a free market operates correctly.
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-17-2013 at 05:44 PM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I see. So is it your position that the Federal government did not, for example, subsidize railroads with per-mile subsidies and land grants?



    It's quite a myth that government was uninvolved in these industries until it decided to step in and heroically save the day from evil, lurking industrialist robber barons.



    I disagree. Monopoly implies an absence of functioning competition, and competition (along with supply, and demand) is one of the primary driving forces by which a free market operates correctly.
    Wasn't it Lincoln before being prez that had much to do with the non free marketing of railroads?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Wasn't it Lincoln before being prez that had much to do with the non free marketing of railroads?
    Among others.

    This essay has a number of interesting anecdotes about Lincoln's career as a railroad attorney (note he also sued railroads, so these speak more to crony capitalism than Lincoln himself):

    http://www.indianahistory.org/our-se...20Attorney.pdf

    Among other government-granted advantages over competitors that an influential railroad could get, we see Lincoln (and the railroads he represented) defending eminent domain without compensation, disclaiming liability when trains kill animals on land which was eminent-domained (but no fences were built), railroads getting special tax exemptions (in exchange for a smaller, flat-rate sum) unique to one company, etc.
    Last edited by marshaul; 10-17-2013 at 11:47 PM.

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    Regular Member Brace's Avatar
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    IE the reason Atlas Shrugged was centered on a railroad executive. Who I guess was supposed to be the great-great-grandaughter of a James J. Hill expy. Marshaul, what is your take on airline oligopoly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brace View Post
    They're paving the way for the Libertarian Party to take over as the new right?
    +1

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