OC Codify HB 5091 & HB 5092

bigt8261 said:

Blame Snyder and the Republican leadership. The truth is, Democrats simply do not have enough power in Lansing to stop anything. There is only one answer to what the problem is.

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yeah, politicians!

MOC has received word that HB 5091 & HB 5092 were reported out of the House Judiciary Committee today with unanimous support.

With out going on a rant I'm still against these bills.

Golden Eagle said:

With out going on a rant I'm still against these bills.

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Can you tell us what you do not like about them?

Much better, as the bills read now, it appears that the controversial 'exemption' for holstered or slung firearms has been eliminated.

The brandishing definition reads as:

"Brandish" means to intentionally point, wave about, or display* in a threatening manner that would induce fear in a reasonable person.

*I still object to the unnecessary inclusion of the term 'display' as 'display' does indeed induce fear in certain people who happen to suffer from hoplaphobia. Granted, reasonable people are not hoplaphobes, but who wants to take the chance of running into an anti-gun nut-case?

Peaceably carried, a firearm needn't ever be 'pointed' or 'waved about' so no worries there.

However, the element of 'display' is always present in open carry and so we're still vulnerable to what an anti-carry LEO or prosecutor deems as 'threatening' or 'inducing fear'.

With 'intentionally pointing' and 'wave about', it wouldn't matter even if (irrational) fear was induced by open carry because normal open carry doesn't involve pointing or waving about (necessary elements of the crime of brandishing). Normal open carry does involve the 'display' of a firearm however, therefore the definition, as it is now, still leaves the door slightly open for LEO harassment or frivolous prosecution.

If the definition was simplified by dropping 'display' as follows, that door would be closed:

"Brandish" means to intentionally point or wave about in a threatening manner that would induce fear in a reasonable person.

OC4me said:

SNIPPED.....

*I still object to the unnecessary inclusion of the term 'display'

The following definition would be much better in my humble opinion:

"Brandish" means to intentionally point or wave about in a threatening manner that would induce fear in a reasonable person.

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AMEN! I can hear dirt bag cops & DA's in shifty cities such as Lansing, Grand Rapids, Warren, Royal Oak, (fill in the _____)

licking their chops at the prospect of now charging lawful OCers with displaying their pistol in a scary (any) looking holster.

Think of it this way - had this been law when Mr Deffert was detained he may have been charged & convicted of "brandishing".

22Luke36 said:

The only thing that will stop that illegal behavior, is if we as a united front, all simply refuse to speak to them if they chose to disarm us. At the point of disarmament simply reply, "Due to your lack of respect for me, and my rights, this conversation is now over. Better a felon than a traitor."

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I would prefer to be neither.

22Luke36 said:

I was hoping for something more useful out of this session... :/

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Such as? What legislation have you worked on that we are unaware of?

Ezerharden said:

Such as? What legislation have you worked on that we are unaware of?

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I don't think it matters what he worked on personally. I think most gun folks would hope to get more done in a given session.

bigt8261 said:

Blame Snyder and the Republican leadership. The truth is, Democrats simply do not have enough power in Lansing to stop anything. There is only one answer to what the problem is.

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King Snyder is the problem. Had Virg been elected, the Republicans would pass Con Carry to spite him in 2011. When he would veto it, they'd over-ride it. The votes were there.

But the Republican legislature is beholden to Ann Arbor Rick who is marginally anti-gun.

OC4me said:

The brandishing definition reads as:

"Brandish" means to intentionally point, wave about, or display* in a threatening manner that would induce fear in a reasonable person.

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The definition was tweaked to include intent. Meaning you must intend to threaten someone. This is possible while leaving your firearm in your holster and never touching it.

Look for the definition to be tweaked a little more when it hits the Senate. We will be making it even more clear that the intent is on the causing fear part, rather than the displaying part.

Sounds like you are on top of things, thanks!

OC4me said:

Sounds like you are on top of things, thanks!

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Many man hours and lawyer hours have been put into this project. We have language that will be introduced in the Senate that we are very comfortable with.

Nice work gentlemen... sounds pretty good. The intent is the key to the whole thing. OCing is not displaying with intent to cause fear. IT's just OCing.

HKcarrier said:

Nice work gentlemen... sounds pretty good. The intent is the key to the whole thing. OCing is not displaying with intent to cause fear. IT's just OCing.

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Our thoughts as well.

FYI, both bills just passed the house with overwhelming votes. I'll post more later when I have more details.

TheQ said:

King Snyder is the problem. Had Virg been elected, the Republicans would pass Con Carry to spite him in 2011. When he would veto it, they'd over-ride it. The votes were there.

But the Republican legislature is beholden to Ann Arbor Rick who is marginally anti-gun.

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That's the solution then, make sure we have a massive Republican legislature, and put a dem in the gov's seat. What the heck, it worked before.

Big Gay Al said:

That's the solution then, make sure we have a massive Republican legislature, and put a dem in the gov's seat. What the heck, it worked before.

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Yep,

Jenny G was better on 2A issues than Rhino Rick IMHO. Man- that's a pretty low blow & it wasn't even intended to be.

Viva MI! May freedom prevail there.

Big Gay Al said:

That's the solution then, make sure we have a massive Republican legislature, and put a dem in the gov's seat. What the heck, it worked before.

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I am privately telling ppl that. So is Jared Coyne. I know at least one Republican staffer that plans to do just that.

FreeInAZ said:

Yep,

Jenny G was better on 2A issues than Rhino Rick IMHO. Man- that's a pretty low blow & it wasn't even intended to be.

Viva MI! May freedom prevail there.

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Just don't forget the damage Jenny did in other areas of MI.

Rick may not be 100% behind 2nd amendment issues but he got the budget under control and stopped the mass exodus of jobs & talent .

He has made MI a place where people can find a job again and without paying some union for the right to earn a living.

Leader said:

Just don't forget the damage Jenny did in other areas of MI.

Rick may not be 100% behind 2nd amendment issues but he got the budget under control and stopped the mass exodus of jobs & talent .

He has made MI a place where people can find a job again and without paying some union for the right to earn a living.

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Then we have to find someone to challenge the governor in the primary that is pro-2nd amendment. And that won't be easy.