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Rights in hospitals.

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
Please show me where in the US or Virginia Constitution it says you have the right not to have your stuff stolen.

Amendment V, US Constitution states (in part):
nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
You have a right to not be deprived of your property without due process of law. Theft deprives you of your property without due process of law. Ergo, theft is a violation of your rights.

Similarly, according to this section, you have a right to not be deprived of life without due process of law. Murder deprives you of life without due process of law. Ergo, murder is a violation of your rights.

This principle was clearly described in the Declaration of Independence, when they stated that the purpose of government is to secure your unalienable rights (including, but not limited to, life, liberty and "the pursuit of happiness"). It makes no sense to establish a government to secure your rights, if the only entity that can violate your rights is that same government. If you accept the philosophical underpinnings of our system of government, as expressed in the Declaration and implemented in the Constitution, then it is clear that private individuals can violate the rights of others without any government affiliation involved.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Amendment V, US Constitution states (in part):You have a right to not be deprived of your property without due process of law. Theft deprives you of your property without due process of law. Ergo, theft is a violation of your rights.

Similarly, according to this section, you have a right to not be deprived of life without due process of law. Murder deprives you of life without due process of law. Ergo, murder is a violation of your rights.

This principle was clearly described in the Declaration of Independence, when they stated that the purpose of government is to secure your unalienable rights (including, but not limited to, life, liberty and "the pursuit of happiness"). It makes no sense to establish a government to secure your rights, if the only entity that can violate your rights is that same government. If you accept the philosophical underpinnings of our system of government, as expressed in the Declaration and implemented in the Constitution, then it is clear that private individuals can violate the rights of others without any government affiliation involved.

Sorry, but those restrictions apply ONLY to the government and its actions. They have nothing to do with non-governmental persons or agencies. And the Declaration of Independence clearly states that those unalienable rights were being violated by an oppressive and unresponsive government that, among many other things, refused to allow the courts to proceed against criminal complaints.

The only way the government can control the behavior of individuals is by 1) enacting laws saying X or Y or Z is criminal, 2) prosecuting someone for bcommitting X or Y or Z, and then 3) imposing some sort of punishment for being convicted of having committed X or Y or Z in defiance of the law prohibiting so. (Which, BTW, is your due process in action.)

stay safe.
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
Sorry, but those restrictions apply ONLY to the government and its actions. They have nothing to do with non-governmental persons or agencies.
Where does it say that? It says that "No person shall", not "The government shall not".

And the Declaration of Independence clearly states that those unalienable rights were being violated by an oppressive and unresponsive government that, among many other things, refused to allow the courts to proceed against criminal complaints.
What you say is true, but it doesn't negate what I said.

According to the philosophical basis for our government, governments exist to protect rights. It makes no logical sense to say that government only exists to protect rights against government itself, because the easiest way to do that is to simply abolish government entirely (aka anarchy). Instead, the Founding Fathers created a system of government for the purpose of protecting the rights of individuals. Some of those rights had previously been violated by the previous government, but those violations were not the entire focus of the new government.

The only way the government can control the behavior of individuals is by 1) enacting laws saying X or Y or Z is criminal, 2) prosecuting someone for bcommitting X or Y or Z, and then 3) imposing some sort of punishment for being convicted of having committed X or Y or Z in defiance of the law prohibiting so. (Which, BTW, is your due process in action.)
And that is the mechanism by which government helps to secure those unalienable rights. The reason that the government has authority to make theft criminal is because we granted the government the authority to secure our right to property. The reason that the government can outlaw murder is because we gave the government authority to protect our right to life.

The way our system of government is set up is specifically to protect our rights from both our fellow citizens and from the government itself. The government cannot violate my right to property without due process, but neither can another individual.

Yes, there are some rights that only the government is prohibited from infringing (such as free speech), but that doesn't mean that all rights fall into that category.
 

Walt_Kowalski

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Ashburn, Virginia, USA
Do you think a hospital should be allowed to forbid a patient or a visitor from praying for the health or healing for themselves or for a loved one? Do you think a hospital should be allowed to forbid a visitor or a patient from possessing a Bible or other religious text while they are on hospital property?

These First Amendment issues are equal to the Second Amendment issues, including carrying a gun for self defense. Until we who claim to support gun rights wake up to these similarities, and recognize how ridiculous it is to allow others to intimidate us into giving up these rights, we are our own worst enemy.

ETA: And to be clear, I'm not suggesting we remove the rights of hospitals to forbid EITHER religious activities and texts, OR guns... I AM suggesting that policies which do so (in either case) are ridiculous, and must be called out as such - and socially rejected until they are rescinded.

TFred

+1 and *high-five*
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
Can you quote the entire sentence, please? I think the answer lies there.
The entire Amendment states:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
However, since that is a compound sentence with numerous parallel clauses, we can reduce it to only the relevant part:
No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
As written, it is not merely a restriction on government.

This all started when skidmark asked someone to show where in the Constitution (either Federal or Virginia) there was a right not to have your stuff stolen. Right there in the Fifth Amendment is where that happens. The only legal way to deprive someone of their property is through due process of law (and that would include depriving them of that property through a civil case, not just a criminal one). Theft does not follow due process, ergo the Fifth Amendment protects a right not to have your stuff stolen.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Dear sweet shivering shiva on a velveteen pogo stick -

You have just hoist yourself with your own petard.

The Amendment you cite is part of the Constitution, which is only, solely, and rigorously restricted to discussing what the government may or may not do. It has no bearing whatsoever on controlling, limiting, or otherwise restricting, directing or ordering the behavior of individuals who are not acting as agents of that government and under color of the law(s) of that government.

"No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; ...." No person shall be deprived by whom? BY THE GOVERNMENT! Why? Because only the government can provide due process of law.

At this point I am this >< close to hoping that you actually try to present your theory in a court of law, just so that the pain you would suffer might finally drive home the lessons on understanding law and statutes that you seem so desparately to need.

One does not need to have attended law school to understand these things. There are even places on the internet where one can receive basic instruction on how the law works, how the law is generally interpreted, and how to apply those to any specific situation. However, I truely fear this will never progress to education; it has deteriorated to arguing on the internet and I refuse to do that with an unarmed individual.

stay safe.

The entire Amendment states:However, since that is a compound sentence with numerous parallel clauses, we can reduce it to only the relevant part:As written, it is not merely a restriction on government.

This all started when skidmark asked someone to show where in the Constitution (either Federal or Virginia) there was a right not to have your stuff stolen. Right there in the Fifth Amendment is where that happens. The only legal way to deprive someone of their property is through due process of law (and that would include depriving them of that property through a civil case, not just a criminal one). Theft does not follow due process, ergo the Fifth Amendment protects a right not to have your stuff stolen.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
////

popcorn.gif
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
The Amendment you cite is part of the Constitution, which is only, solely, and rigorously restricted to discussing what the government may or may not do. It has no bearing whatsoever on controlling, limiting, or otherwise restricting, directing or ordering the behavior of individuals who are not acting as agents of that government and under color of the law(s) of that government.

"No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; ...." No person shall be deprived by whom? BY THE GOVERNMENT! Why? Because only the government can provide due process of law.

At this point I am this >< close to hoping that you actually try to present your theory in a court of law, just so that the pain you would suffer might finally drive home the lessons on understanding law and statutes that you seem so desparately to need.

One does not need to have attended law school to understand these things. There are even places on the internet where one can receive basic instruction on how the law works, how the law is generally interpreted, and how to apply those to any specific situation. However, I truely fear this will never progress to education; it has deteriorated to arguing on the internet and I refuse to do that with an unarmed individual.

stay safe.
You are missing the key point of my argument.

You basically said that only the government can violate someone's rights.
Unless the hospital is a government one, they are not violating any of your rights by confiscating and disposing of your personal peropertry without due process and fair compensation. They would merely be stealing from you.
It is important to remember that the Constitution does not grant rights. Instead, it defines the authority granted to government and the limits placed upon that authority. As part of those limits, certain rights are specified as protected from that authority. That does not mean that only that authority can violate those rights.

As the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...". Government exists to secure rights. Logically speaking we must then ask, "secure them from what?" If we were to take your position, that only the government can violate someone's rights, then there is no logical reason to create a government to secure rights. The absence of government would be able to prevent any violation of rights.

The only logical understanding of that statement about the purpose of government is to understand that governments exist to secure rights against violation by other people (including, but not limited to, governments).

Someone stealing from you is violating your right to property. They may not be violating your rights "under color of law", but they are still violating them. In order for them to do so legally, they would have to follow due process of law, through such means as a civil suit, forfeiture proceedings, eviction proceedings, etc. Any other method of a private individual taking your property from you without your consent is unconstitutional (i.e. not permitted by the Constitution).

The means by which we (as a society) have chosen to secure our rights from other individuals is by granting to the government the authority to pass laws prohibiting such activities, with corresponding penalties for the violation of those laws. It's not an either/or situation, where either someone is stealing from you or they are violating your rights. Theft is a violation of another person's right to property.

As such, a hospital that confiscates and disposes of your property, be it a handgun, pocketknife, book, etc, is violating your right to property. They are not violating that right under color of law, but they are still violating it.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
If rights can only be infringed by a gov't entity or employee, why do we have these bits of federal code?

42USC1985 Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights which is applicable to anyone but only a civil action.
(3) Depriving persons of rights or privileges
If two or more persons in any State ... conspire ... for the purpose of depriving, either directly or indirectly, any person ... of equal privileges and immunities under the laws
...
in any case of conspiracy set forth in this section, if one or more persons engaged therein do, or cause to be done, any act in furtherance of the object of such conspiracy, whereby another is ... deprived of having and exercising any right or privilege of a citizen of the United States, the party so injured or deprived may have an action for the recovery of damages occasioned by such injury or deprivation, against any one or more of the conspirators.

18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
...
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
and ... if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap... they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
 

The Wolfhound

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
728
Location
Henrico, Virginia, USA
If rights can only be infringed by a gov't entity or employee, why do we have these bits of federal code?

42USC1985 Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights which is applicable to anyone but only a civil action.


18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.

Wow! What a flash of happy thought. To think that those who are obviously conspiring to infringe on our right protected by the Second Ammendment could and should be prosecuted for conspiracy. This happy moment will unfortunately pass as no one will enforce it, but what a concept!

Can we begin Judge shopping? Any Prosecutors willing to stand up? Can I measure Nanny Bloomberg for prison stripes?
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
I am not certified and accredited as a law school and am thus prohibited from charging a fee for providing education and instruction regarding the inperpretation and application of the law, local, state, federal or constitutional. And I'm certainly not going to do so for free. (Sory, Grapeshot:uhoh:)

The two citations above essentially devolve into obstruction of justice which is related to the prevention of the government doing its job. In the case of those two citations the job of the government is to ensure that individuals are able to exercise their enumerated rights. Reading the history of those two public laws might be very instructive.

This has gotten to the point of Yes it is/No it isnt.

Take your point of view into court and tell me how your case turns out. That will determine if it Is or Isn't.

Y'all finish your popcorn and be sure to put the containers in the appropriate receptacles on the way out.

stay safe.
 
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