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Thread: Question for open carry with a threaded barrel

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    Question for open carry with a threaded barrel

    I just got a new pistol that has a threaded barrel on it and I'm not 100% sure on if it is legal to carry it or not. I might just be reading far too much in to it being a marylander, but I would rather be 100% one way or another. This is a direct copy from the VASP website.
    § 18.2-287.4
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. "

    Is my understanding that if I get a concealed carry permit that I do not have to worry about my gun having a threaded barrel or am I just completely wrong on this?

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas A. View Post
    I just got a new pistol that has a threaded barrel on it and I'm not 100% sure on if it is legal to carry it or not. I might just be reading far too much in to it being a marylander, but I would rather be 100% one way or another. This is a direct copy from the VASP website.
    § 18.2-287.4
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. "

    Is my understanding that if I get a concealed carry permit that I do not have to worry about my gun having a threaded barrel or am I just completely wrong on this?
    your question is answered in the text of the statute you quoted.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cited law View Post
    § 18.2-287.4
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded ... semi-automatic center-fire ... pistol that ... is ... designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer...

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to ... any person having a valid concealed handgun permit..."
    Looks like, assuming that is a valid law, and you are in those cities or counties. I didn't expect that, but am not an expert in VA, though I'm sure those guys will confirm shortly.

    It does seem as if the permit would render the issue moot.

    While waiting on your permit, you may be able to carry it anyway. What is VA's definition of "loaded?" Maybe just having the chamber empty will cause you to be lawful.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-20-2013 at 11:19 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    your question is answered in the text of the statute you quoted.
    YEP....P4P

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas A. View Post
    I just got a new pistol that has a threaded barrel on it and I'm not 100% sure on if it is legal to carry it or not. I might just be reading far too much in to it being a marylander, but I would rather be 100% one way or another. This is a direct copy from the VASP website.
    § 18.2-287.4
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. "

    Is my understanding that if I get a concealed carry permit that I do not have to worry about my gun having a threaded barrel or am I just completely wrong on this?
    I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.

    The threaded barrel that's in the gun, did the manufacturer put it there, or is it a 3rd party barrel that was added "post-manufacture". If the threaded barrel is "original factory equipment", what was the manufacturer's purpose for the threaded barrel? Since so few guns come with factory threaded barrels (H&K MK23 SOCOM, H&K USP Tactical are the only two that come to mind right off) I'd expect the owner's manual to elucidate some purpose for those threads.

    In my opinion (which is meaningless and worthless) if it is a 3rd party barrel that was not installed by the manufacturer, then your gun-with-a-threaded-barrel was not "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer". If the gun was originally manufactured with a threaded barrel then there is a good chance that it's arguable that the gun was "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer".

    My two cents.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.

    The threaded barrel that's in the gun, did the manufacturer put it there, or is it a 3rd party barrel that was added "post-manufacture". If the threaded barrel is "original factory equipment", what was the manufacturer's purpose for the threaded barrel? Since so few guns come with factory threaded barrels (H&K MK23 SOCOM, H&K USP Tactical are the only two that come to mind right off) I'd expect the owner's manual to elucidate some purpose for those threads.

    In my opinion (which is meaningless and worthless) if it is a 3rd party barrel that was not installed by the manufacturer, then your gun-with-a-threaded-barrel was not "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer". If the gun was originally manufactured with a threaded barrel then there is a good chance that it's arguable that the gun was "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer".

    My two cents.
    Your two cents will get you and anybody who listens to it locked up.

    "... or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer ...." does not apply ony to the manufacturer of the original pistol. It applies equally to the manufacturer of the aftermarket barrel you suggest might be installed. (BTW, most barrels, OEM or otherwise, are 3rd party to the manufacturer of pistols.) The presumption is that the threads were cut into the barrel for the purpose of attaching a silencer. The defendant is going to have to prove that 1) there is no way a silencer could be screwed onto those threads, and 2) the threads were cut for the specifix reason of X and for no other reason, and can only be utilized for that reason and no other. Good luck with that.

    The courts are going to go through essentially this line of questioning:
    - does it have threads on the end of the barrel? If YES, then
    - did the defendant carry it on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William? If YES, then
    - did the defendant then and there have a valid Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit? If NO, then

    GUILTY.

    Yes, the above does skirt the question of what the manufacturer designed the threads to be used for. But even laws that are written so clearly that there is no possible way they could be misinterpreted or misapplied have been misinterpreted and misapplied. Want proof? " ... shall not be infringed."

    stay safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nicholas A.

    --snipped--
    § 18.2-287.4
    ............The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. "

    Is my understanding that if I get a concealed carry permit that I do not have to worry about my gun having a threaded barrel or am I just completely wrong on this?
    Your understanding is correct - you are not wrong.

    Threaded barrels add to the scariness and potential of what you might do in the listed municipalities. A CHP removes that potential fright and danger and makes you more gooder.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-21-2013 at 08:05 AM. Reason: fixed
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    Thank you everyone for the replies. I figured the cited law answered my question but I wanted to get other opinions

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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Your two cents will get you and anybody who listens to it locked up.

    "... or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer ...." does not apply ony to the manufacturer of the original pistol. It applies equally to the manufacturer of the aftermarket barrel you suggest might be installed.
    I respectfully disagree - so long as the judge is familiar with English sentence construction (which has to be followed pretty strictly when interpreting statutes).

    It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.
    In subsection (a) the noun being further described is a "semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol". There are various attributes a semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol may have which cause a violation.

    If it is:

    1. equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition
    2. designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer
    3. equipped with a folding stock

    The word "barrel" doesn't even appear in the statute, so it would be hard for it to be the subject of any of the other various descriptive phrases.

    That said, why do it? If an openly carried gun with a threaded barrel is even potentially a crime, even if an aftermarket threaded barrel evaded the definition, it's a freebie for the cops to stop you, and you might even get arrested because the officer has no way of knowing if the manufacturer designed the pistol to accommodate a silencer or you reconfigured it.

    No point in doing it that I can see.

    You could also argue the inverse by the way. Say your pistol is an H&K SOCOM which definitely was designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer, but you replace the barrel with a non-threaded one. The gun was still "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer", and so, by the letter of the law, you technically couldn't open carry it.

    Strange law by the way.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    I respectfully disagree - so long as the judge is familiar with English sentence construction (which has to be followed pretty strictly when interpreting statutes).



    In subsection (a) the noun being further described is a "semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol". There are various attributes a semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol may have which cause a violation.

    If it is:

    1. equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition
    2. designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer
    3. equipped with a folding stock

    The word "barrel" doesn't even appear in the statute, so it would be hard for it to be the subject of any of the other various descriptive phrases.

    That said, why do it? If an openly carried gun with a threaded barrel is even potentially a crime, even if an aftermarket threaded barrel evaded the definition, it's a freebie for the cops to stop you, and you might even get arrested because the officer has no way of knowing if the manufacturer designed the pistol to accommodate a silencer or you reconfigured it.

    No point in doing it that I can see.

    You could also argue the inveWILLrse by the way. Say your pistol is an H&K SOCOM which definitely was designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer, but you replace the barrel with a non-threaded one. The gun was still "designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer", and so, by the letter of the law, you technically couldn't open carry it.

    Strange law by the way.
    For the sake of newcomers......as Skid pointed out, that logic in Virginia, WILL not might but will...get you locked up in short order.

    Your answer is called Jail House law.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-21-2013 at 10:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    For the sake of newcomers......as Skid pointed out, that logic in Virginia, WILL not might but will...get you locked up in short order.

    Your answer is called Jail House law.
    Certainly true that "well, some guy on the Internet said..." isn't going to hold any water with the police. I'm just saying how the statute should be read. That doesn't have a darn thing to do with how it's actually enforced, and the locals know best there.

    Anyone aware of case law for someone actually being arrested for this? Because my argument is the exact one I'd expect a defense lawyer to make if the threaded barrel were added by the end-user.

    Either way, sloppy law drafting on the part of Virginia. In order to have the effect they were apparently after they should have used the much broader phrase "designed, redesigned or intended" (and leave the manufacturer out of it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    Certainly true that "well, some guy on the Internet said..." isn't going to hold any water with the police. I'm just saying how the statute should be read. That doesn't have a darn thing to do with how it's actually enforced, and the locals know best there.

    Anyone aware of case law for someone actually being arrested for this? .
    West’s New Annotated Code of Virginia by the Virginia Association of Law Libraries Ad Hoc Committee on Annotated Codes costs ~$600, Michie's ~$500
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    Certainly true that "well, some guy on the Internet said..." isn't going to hold any water with the police. I'm just saying how the statute should be read. That doesn't have a darn thing to do with how it's actually enforced, and the locals know best there.

    Anyone aware of case law for someone actually being arrested for this? Because my argument is the exact one I'd expect a defense lawyer to make if the threaded barrel were added by the end-user.

    Either way, sloppy law drafting on the part of Virginia. In order to have the effect they were apparently after they should have used the much broader phrase "designed, redesigned or intended" (and leave the manufacturer out of it).
    Might I interest you in reading my post again? Especially this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ....

    But even laws that are written so clearly that there is no possible way they could be misinterpreted or misapplied have been misinterpreted and misapplied. Want proof? " ... shall not be infringed."

    stay safe.
    Sophomoric logic (what peter nap called jailhouse law) is how we wind up with the crappy case law we are saddled with - someone applied sophomoric loogic to a situation and when that crashed in on their head and shoulders they used the same sophomoric logic to appeal the conviction.

    For those that think the term refers to second-year high school students, let this from The Online Dictionary help you -

    A sophomoric view is one held confidently because of lack of awareness of one's own ignorance. From the Greek words σοφός (transliterated as sophos), meaning wise or clever, and μωρός (transliterated as moros) meaning foolish or stupid, related to the word moron.
    And that goes as well for asking someone else to Shepardize your cases, after wading through Westlaw/LexisNexis for appeals of a misdemeanor.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    ...what was the manufacturer's purpose for the threaded barrel?...
    What does the manual say? If I were the judge, that would be my deciding factor.

    The problem to the OP is that I'm sure he's trying to avoid the issue getting that far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What does the manual say? If I were the judge, that would be my deciding factor.

    The problem to the OP is that I'm sure he's trying to avoid the issue getting that far.
    Exactly, For everyone's information it is a H&K 45 Tactical. The owners manual state that while it can accept a suppressor you must contact H&K in order to get the specification.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas A. View Post
    Exactly, For everyone's information it is a H&K 45 Tactical. The owners manual state that while it can accept a suppressor you must contact H&K in order to get the specification.
    This law used to be generic and was based on population. Later it was changed to what it is now.

    It was clearly the first step to banning open carry. It is intended to have a chilling effect.

    If you want to be certain you aren't going to have to argue with the Judge, carry a different gun in those places or sell your soul for a CHP.

    Nice gun BTW!

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    Thank you, I look forward to taking it to the range and firing it for the first time (still rather new)

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