Serpa causes finger to slip into trigger guard too soon?

DocWalker said:

If there seems to be more discharges from a Glock should we blame the Glock or the people not handling it properly? .

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That really isn't a fair comparison. Glocks are among the simplest, and most reliable firearms ever made. And they work exactly as designed. They don't lend themselves towards negligent discharges when the magazine release is actuated, or anything like that.

Glock's do however have no manual safety (a good thing in my opinion) and a light, fairly short, constant action trigger pull, which necessitates a good, reliable holster and competent technique for carrying.

There is an added element of danger for those who haphazardly finger bang their guns, because in order to dry fire them, you have to rack the action every time. The action is so smooth that you can't really hear the difference between a dry racking and a round being chambered, which is particularly dangerous if someone is stupid enough to play with hot mags while not intending to actually fire.

There is nothing about the proper use of a Glock, including under severe stress from fighting, which lends itself to ND's or AD's. The same cannot be said of Serpas.

Michigander said:

I can relate to Tex, because I had a similar incident, however mine was exclusively equipment failure related (trigger never pulled, gun not drop safe). There is a tendency to want to take responsibility, despite what some would think. I know I blamed myself, and still do, even though it was a defective commie gun. I would further add that I suggest drawing your own conclusions based on the best information available, not worrying about what others think, even if they got shot and/or are well known.

In the case of the Serpa line up, this is the best video break down I know of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

Those of you who think you are above and beyond ******* up, I wish you luck. Fortunately for the rest of us, you're only endangering yourselves.

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Well it is certainly a video with an agenda. He even maligns the Serpa paddle attachment as having an awkward angle to allow depressing the release correctly, but ignores the fact that the holster can be adjusted to several different positions/cants. I wear my Serpa straight up and down for just that reason.

The rest of the video is devoted to demonstrating the improper way to use/activate a Serpa - such incorrect procedure is not the fault of the holster design - it is operator error.

The "problem" of not being able to draw/depress the switch if you pull up on the gun too soon - I see this as a safety feature to make gun snatches more difficult. If your gun does not clear the holster for this problem, keep your finger straight (don't move it), push down on the gun and immediately draw it. Walla - no muss, no fuss...........and no operator error.

Now to be quite candid, there is a small problem with a Serpa and no it is not the mythical pebble - redesign fixed that years ago. My best student was an eight year old boy - son who grew up to be the Senior Use of Force Instructor at a state academy.

His testing proved that a Serpa could be ripped off from the side with a violent two handed grip, giving the aggressor a holster with a gun - effectively disarming you. The screw heads (diameter) vs shank size are not large enough. THAT got my attention.

Serpa could likely fix that with a metal insert at that point or maybe a metal surface plate w/longer screws. Do I consider that a valid, realistic reason to cease use of my Serpa's - not really.

Truth is I really like the Safariland level 3, especially with the quick mount platform - been looking for an excuse to buy one. Now I have it + allows me further ingress into the "by his student, he was taught" category. Thanks Jami-san.

Michigander said:

I can relate to Tex, because I had a similar incident, however mine was exclusively equipment failure related (trigger never pulled, gun not drop safe). There is a tendency to want to take responsibility, despite what some would think. I know I blamed myself, and still do, even though it was a defective commie gun. I would further add that I suggest drawing your own conclusions based on the best information available, not worrying about what others think, even if they got shot and/or are well known.

In the case of the Serpa line up, this is the best video break down I know of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

Those of you who think you are above and beyond ******* up, I wish you luck. Fortunately for the rest of us, you're only endangering yourselves.

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There is certainly that video. But there is also this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEuBXWujeYQ

FBrinson said:

There is certainly that video. But there is also this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEuBXWujeYQ

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His conclusion: it wasn't the gun, it wasn't the Serpa, it was (standby)......(ready for it yet?).....OPERATOR ERROR.

His friends should be glad he wasn't wearing a horizontal shoulder rig.

Michigander said:

That really isn't a fair comparison. Glocks are among the simplest, and most reliable firearms ever made. And they work exactly as designed. They don't lend themselves towards negligent discharges when the magazine release is actuated, or anything like that.

Glock's do however have no manual safety (a good thing in my opinion) and a light, fairly short, constant action trigger pull, which necessitates a good, reliable holster and competent technique for carrying.

There is an added element of danger for those who haphazardly finger bang their guns, because in order to dry fire them, you have to rack the action every time. The action is so smooth that you can't really hear the difference between a dry racking and a round being chambered, which is particularly dangerous if someone is stupid enough to play with hot mags while not intending to actually fire.

There is nothing about the proper use of a Glock, including under severe stress from fighting, which lends itself to ND's or AD's. The same cannot be said of Serpas.

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I agree and so are you really, it isn't the holster nor the pistol it is the person using it. I also believe nobody is above a ND or AD if the person has a loss of focus or attention. Not practicing with your weapon is another problem, buying a pistol and shooting it once dosn't make you good in handling the weapon. I believe that LE has had more ND's due to the fact a lot of departments have gone to them and also lack the time training with them. One of my local departments went from the SW 5907 9mm to the glock 40cal. One day at work they were issued the new weapons, some went out on patrol without even firing it. They had to wait for their training day which was days if not weeks in some cases.

I carry my XD40sc or XD40 4" in a Serpa. Typically the sub-compact, with flush mag and canted forward to keep the grip close to my side. This works well for CC, especially in the cooler weather and provides the comfort of OWB carry.

When I draw, my finger is straight, and resting on the frame above the trigger. That's where the retention release places my finger, plus the forward cant helps. Additionally a straight finger cannot grip the gun and be on the trigger.

Forgeting to unlock and open the garage doors before driving out does not indicate a faulty garage design - it's operator error.

Didja hear the one about the man who decided to build his garage on the 2nd floor of his rancher - he didn't want to reduce his green area.....that's liberal logic.

Many of these videos are liberally logical. :uhoh: Think that might be an oxymoron.

IMO there are three factors that cause ND's; Brain farts, handling a firearm too much, and lack of safety training.

Don't wear your firearm where your wallet, keys, or any other important item is located on your body. Don't fidget and play with your firearm. Go over safety mentally each and every time you come into contact with a firearm. A person can never touch a firearm and be safer than one who handles them daily but forgets basic safety. It is not how much a person handles the firearm that makes them safer, it is totally the function of the brain to make a firearms owner/carrier safe.

If you have a ND it is because you mentally screwed up.

Tex got it right that it was his fault, and lack of respect for the firearm. And he is a person who handles his firearm a lot for his videos. He even handled it unnecessarily in the video where he talks of respect. Some people never learn or get it, there was no need to pull the sidearm for dramatic effect, and possibly bleeping shoot somebody or himself again.

Tex should be watched for what not to do, I find it amusing that "Runaway" is one of his supporters.

independence said:

I read a couple of posts on forums a few months back about problems with Serpa holsters. I don't remember which forums, but they were claiming that ND's had a occurred due to the shooter depressing the index finger button with too much pressure and it negligently slipping into the trigger guard.

Is this complete nonsense, or do you think it is a problem? I don't have an opinion because I have only ever tried a Serpa once. What's your opinion?

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Complete nonsense! The only thing that makes the trigger finger enter the trigger guard on your firearm is the brain! Anyone that claims otherwise is just looking for an excuse to cover their reckless and/or negligent firearm handling.

crazy how there has been NDs since the invention of holsters yet the serpa is in the spot light.

Situation: Department firearms instructors class, class syllabus and lecture admonished to not put finger on trigger until on target, retention strap removed, student draws, gun butt snags on garment. Student jambs gun down with finger ON the trigger while clearing snag - finger strikes edge of holster & gun discharges into his thigh exiting above his knee. This after many empty gun repetitions, and occurred directly in front of senior instructor + on camera.

Result: Pain, humiliation, release from course and file noted that student would not be eligible for consideration as an instructor at any time in the future.

Comment: You can't cure stupid, but you can inoculate against transmission to others. You can't effectively teach what you haven't learned yourself.

Aftermath: Former aspiring firearms instructor becomes poster boy for "no-no" actions. Film of event is incorporated in future training. Students are advised that safety practices (dept. policy) must be firmly ingrained before they consider application to the course - no errors in personal responsibility will be excused/tolerated.

Many believe they are safe from a ND because the holster has a covered trigger guard. BUT many depts in the days of the issued revolver got rid of their scabbard holsters with covered trigger guard for open trigger guards. The problem was that many police officers still had their finger on the trigger while reholstering, and boom. A covered guard is NO safety at all.

The moral of the ND's is always have safety on the top of the list, and keep the damn finger off the trigger until on target of a target you intend to shoot.

There is some misinformation here regarding the serpa. I have tons of experience with the serpa but am in no way a fan boy. The serpa does require training to be effective and safe. yes safe.

1.To properly use a serpa you must first grip the butt of the firearm in the thumb and index web of your hand.
2.At the same time you should make sure your index finger is pointed straight. not towards the ground or in any other fashion. the priority is a straight finger.
3.Now with the described web of your hand drive the hand gun down towards the ground and pull straight out.

the problem occurs with people incorrectly employing the second or third step . You do not have to press the button hard, if done correctly not at all. Also people have different size hands and draw techniques. you will want to cant the holster to the optimal angle for YOU to achieve the priority of finger straight. If done correctly your finger will be over the frame of the hangun upon draw and if done incorrectly it will be over the trigger guard.

Remember! don't push the button. Drag your extended finger lightly. The same way you would if the gun was lying in your safe.

If you have a curved finger and yank that firearm ... its only a matter of time.

Now holstering is its own beast and varies based on your firearm. In some handguns the re-holstering into a serpa can work the slide, causing jams or retention issues.

holstering
1.muzzle safe direction, finger straight on frame of sidearm, safety on, reluctantly begin to holster
2.find the middle of the holster with the front top of your slide and follow the gun into the holster until your index finger and thumb both feel the sides of the holster. LET IT FALL
3.return to unholstering step 1. add push down

When you first get a brand new serpa you need to work it in. first hit it with some white lithium or preferred grease and examine the push button. Work the button. insert an unloaded handgun and remove it. the grease helps prep the plastic and also will show you how your pistol is fitting in your serpa. Now work the holster until it is smooth and even leave the sidearm in the holster a couple nights lubed up. Once you are satisfied now you can adjust the serpa for tension and rework it over a 2 day period.


a serpa is my level two holster of choice. the serpa is very adjustable to fit YOU. Don't run it out of the box and expect great results.


And as always keep your booger hooks off the bang switches.

I have a Serpa QCQ, and I just keep my finger straight. The gun comes out with my finger properly indexed. I have two, one for my 1911, and for my Taurus 24/7 with no issues.

golddigger14s said:

I have a Serpa QCQ, and I just keep my finger straight. The gun comes out with my finger properly indexed. I have two, one for my 1911, and for my Taurus 24/7 with no issues.

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Doncha mean Serpa CQC? CQC = close quarter combat.

I don't take issue with the Serpas. I have several and have been using them for years. I like them.

Are they inherently more dangerous than any other holster?? Nah. Dangerous if you use them incorrectly, but what isn't?

Know how to properly use your equipment and you won't have a problem.

caoxinfinity said:

I don't take issue with the Serpas. I have several and have been using them for years. I like them.

Are they inherently more dangerous than any other holster?? Nah. Dangerous if you use them incorrectly, but what isn't?

Know how to properly use your equipment and you won't have a problem.

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I have a couple for my glocks never had a problem with them as you say proper training and practice is all it takes.

i use a blackhawk serpa CQC holster. never had an issue with my finger slipping into the trigger guard... it comes down to how much care the person uses when drawing... dont blame the holster. blame the operator

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

I have a couple for my glocks never had a problem with them as you say proper training and practice is all it takes.

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Fringe benefit of training muscle memory in the proper draw stroke for a Serpa carries forward - no matter what holster you may use, you will orient your finger correctly straight under the slide/barrel and away from the trigger guard.

Grapeshot said:

Fringe benefit of training muscle memory in the proper draw stroke for a Serpa carries forward - no matter what holster you may use, you will orient your finger correctly straight under the slide/barrel and away from the trigger guard.

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+1 I found the Serpa holster actully helps put my finger into the proper position as you describe, I don't push the realease with the end/tip of the finger,