Serpa causes finger to slip into trigger guard too soon?

OC for ME · Nov 18, 2013

If there were no semi-automatic guns there would be far fewer victims in mass shootings. Flint locks could likely have about 3 per minute for a good soldier. The Serpa is simple to use......operator error. Even on day one I did not place my index finger in the trigger guard when practicing. I read the instructions, watched the company video, and followed both the instructions and examples. It seems that folks who are having trouble following the manufactures instructions have a issue with taking and following simple instructions and do not a issue with the product and its design.

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
Most people would consider a "design flaw" as a defect. But you seem to keep contridicting yourself without actually putting up any proof there actually is a design flaw. This is humorous to me as you keep knocking down your argument that there are a few people that don't like them so they don't allow them on their range using the excuss that they are dangerous without actually having proof.

It boils down to option and they are just like b*** holes, everyone has one.

Proof and facts are another issue.

I don't like fords and don't own one, can I say they have a design flaw since I have seen one or two in a ditch???

This is option just like your argument that the Serpa holsters are "design flawed" but not defective.

It is like talking to a brick wall....wow

Why would I claim it's a design flaw? I don't believe it is. I'm not even making that argument. You can be amused all you want, but you, eye95 and Grapeshot are all making claims about what I'm saying that aren't true. So really it's you guys who are trying to argue with me about something I'm not even talking about. So of course it's not going to make any sense to you, you're angrily arguing about oranges while I'm trying to discuss studded snow tires. And when I mention the tires, you get all pissy about oranges.

I would like you to show me any other holster on the market that binds both the gun and the release mechanism so that neither can be operated if you accidentally draw without pressing the release button. Go ahead.

You guys are all focusing on finger discipline which will solve 99% of the issue, but there is still a chance that this one particular small issue can happen with the Serpa even with finger discipline. You can't even accept that simple fact. I'd call that blindness.

Further, ALL I SAID THAT GOT YOU FLAMED UP, was that I don't blame the training companies for banning them. For pretty much the same reason I don't blame them for banning hand loaded ammo. You'd have thought I kicked your dog, slapped your mom, and kissed your girlfriend in one simple sentence. That's having too much ego wrapped up in your gear. I'm sorry your ego is so tied to your holster.

I'll stand by what I said. The Serpa has a unique failure mode that requires user error, but can only be replicated on a Serpa. Other holsters have their own unique failure modes as well, but this is a thread about the Serpa. It would do you well to know that mode so that you can avoid it and can help others as well.

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
Please cite were it isn't the user but the actual holster, other than option of course.

This is like blaming a gun for a mass shooting instead of the person.

Cherry picking my quotes has become a fad for you. Let's let the others read "The rest of the story.."

What I actually said was:

"The irrefutable facts are these. There is a known issue with the Serpa holster. It's unique to the Serpa. It's VERY minor and VERY rare. It requires a very specific series of user errors to replicate. But it does happen.

None of which makes the Serpa a bad holster or dangerous. It simply means we would be smart to know those circumstances so that we can help others be safe and train properly."

Note that 5th sentence that you conveniently left out? The one I bolded, italicized, and even made red! You're the one who can't seem to comprehend simple logic here.

SD40VE · Nov 18, 2013

honestly its the user and not the holster. if done how it is recommended. your finger will not fall into the trigger guard. it will be along the slide as it should be. the issue i have found is with the times shooters. they are rushing to get as many shots on target as they can in the quickest manner. this caused them to use their finger tip to release the serpa mechanism. when doing a quick draw like that it is very easy to get the finger in the trigger guard.

bottom line: use the holster how it was designed and it wont give you an issue

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
Cherry picking my quotes has become a fad for you. Let's let the others read "The rest of the story.."

What I actually said was:

"The irrefutable facts are these. There is a known issue with the Serpa holster. It's unique to the Serpa. It's VERY minor and VERY rare. It requires a very specific series of user errors to replicate. But it does happen.

None of which makes the Serpa a bad holster or dangerous. It simply means we would be smart to know those circumstances so that we can help others be safe and train properly."

Note that 5th sentence that you conveniently left out? The one I bolded, italicized, and even made red! You're the one who can't seem to comprehend simple logic here.

Your words not mine, I was just pulling out the sentence that you said there is a "known issue with the serpa holster". It doesn't matter if you try to back track with fluff what matters is your saying it has a known issue. This is all as we say without supportive documentation to back up your claim other that statements made by some people.

You should be in politics as you seem to speak out both sides of your cheeks....

Either the holster is to blame or the user, unless you have documented facts to back up your statement.....wait you don't never mind.

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
Why would I claim it's a design flaw? I don't believe it is. I'm not even making that argument. You can be amused all you want, but you, eye95 and Grapeshot are all making claims about what I'm saying that aren't true. So really it's you guys who are trying to argue with me about something I'm not even talking about. So of course it's not going to make any sense to you, you're angrily arguing about oranges while I'm trying to discuss studded snow tires. And when I mention the tires, you get all pissy about oranges.

I would like you to show me any other holster on the market that binds both the gun and the release mechanism so that neither can be operated if you accidentally draw without pressing the release button. Go ahead.

You guys are all focusing on finger discipline which will solve 99% of the issue, but there is still a chance that this one particular small issue can happen with the Serpa even with finger discipline. You can't even accept that simple fact. I'd call that blindness.

Further, ALL I SAID THAT GOT YOU FLAMED UP, was that I don't blame the training companies for banning them. For pretty much the same reason I don't blame them for banning hand loaded ammo. You'd have thought I kicked your dog, slapped your mom, and kissed your girlfriend in one simple sentence. That's having too much ego wrapped up in your gear. I'm sorry your ego is so tied to your holster.

I'll stand by what I said. The Serpa has a unique failure mode that requires user error, but can only be replicated on a Serpa. Other holsters have their own unique failure modes as well, but this is a thread about the Serpa. It would do you well to know that mode so that you can avoid it and can help others as well.

I won't "cherry pick" your comment as you say. I will make everyone read you entire dribble.

My ego isn't tied to my holster as i use multiple holsters. What I will do and continue to do is call out BS when I read it and what you have been passing would make farms grow hundreds of fields of hugh crops.

SD40VE · Nov 18, 2013

a couple of interesting things i found while looking into serpa holsters (please keep in mind i use a blackhawk CQC holster for my carry pistol i am a supporter of them and have had no issues whatsover with my holster)

SPECIAL BULLETIN
National Training and Emergency Operations Branch
Officer Safety Bulletin

Good Afternoon,

In our efforts to continually stay abreast of issues relating to officer safety, the National Training and Emergency Operations Branch (NTEOB) routinely evaluates the law enforcement equipment issued to or carried by OI personnel.

Recently, one such piece of equipment, the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster, has come under scrutiny due to safety concerns involving the design of its retention safety device. There have been several recent documented cases, involving law enforcement and civilian personnel, where unintentional discharges have occurred while weapons were being drawn from this holster. Many of these unintentional discharges have resulted in gunshot injuries to the officers/agents involved.

The SERPA is one of the only holster system designed to use the trigger finger to release the retention safety device. This method of releasing the safety device is contrary to our training methods and techniques, which emphasize attacking the holster from the "top down." In addition, this retention system is completely different from the standard thumb-break holsters currently issued by OI. While it is true that one of the Cardinal Rules of firearms safety was violated by the individual placing his or her finger on the trigger before they were ready to shoot, we believe that the design of the SERPA holster facilitates this action by engaging the trigger finger well before the individual is prepared to shoot.

In light of these events and in accordance with OI policy, specifically Part 2, Section 2, Subsection IV B, NTEOB is suspending all use of the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster by OI agents acting in an official, on-duty capacity. NTEOB will thoroughly research and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this holster system and report on its findings.

In the meantime, those agents who may be affected by this safety bulletin should be directed to utilize their standard agency-issued holster to secure their weapon on their person. As a reminder, new standard issue holsters were previously issued to all OI 1811s. This is the recommended holster system. Should agents wish to purchase a holster, they should be informed that all holsters have to be approved by National Firearms Coordinator/NTEOB, as per policy.

Thank you in advance for your assistance and cooperation.

http://www.gunsite.com/main/wp-cont...ohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

^^ another note from US forestry service

and a whole blog with the 2 above stories in them

http://pointblank4445.blogspot.com/2012/06/blackhawk-serpa-holster-warning.html

in the end its comes down to user error. if your finger slips into the trigger guard THAT IS YOUR ERROR, if there is debris or dirt that prevents you from drawing, THAT IS YOUR LACK OF MAINTENANCE AND ENSURING THERE IS NOTHING BLOCKING THAT MECHANISM.

user error, seems to be a common cause for the issues. i love my serpa from blackhawk

Grapeshot · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
Why would I claim it's a design flaw? I don't believe it is. I'm not even making that argument. You can be amused all you want, but you, eye95 and Grapeshot are all making claims about what I'm saying that aren't true. So really it's you guys who are trying to argue with me about something I'm not even talking about. So of course it's not going to make any sense to you, you're angrily arguing about oranges while I'm trying to discuss studded snow tires. And when I mention the tires, you get all pissy about oranges.

I would like you to show me any other holster on the market that binds both the gun and the release mechanism so that neither can be operated if you accidentally draw without pressing the release button. Go ahead.

You guys are all focusing on finger discipline which will solve 99% of the issue, but there is still a chance that this one particular small issue can happen with the Serpa even with finger discipline. You can't even accept that simple fact. I'd call that blindness.

Further, ALL I SAID THAT GOT YOU FLAMED UP, was that I don't blame the training companies for banning them. For pretty much the same reason I don't blame them for banning hand loaded ammo. You'd have thought I kicked your dog, slapped your mom, and kissed your girlfriend in one simple sentence. That's having too much ego wrapped up in your gear. I'm sorry your ego is so tied to your holster.

I'll stand by what I said. The Serpa has a unique failure mode that requires user error, but can only be replicated on a Serpa. Other holsters have their own unique failure modes as well, but this is a thread about the Serpa. It would do you well to know that mode so that you can avoid it and can help others as well.

First let's clear the air on a few things.

1) A difference of opinion should be a discussion (what I thought we were having) not an argument as you claim.

2) The primary purpose of the mechanism jamming if not released in the proper sequence is IMO for active retention when physically active AND to help prevent gun snatches - the Serpa accomplishes that.

3) Nothing is ever 100% excluded including that a stone or stick might jamb up an open top (no retention) holster.

4) I'm not "Flamed UP" - I am shaking my head at the accusation though.

5) The Serpa is a unique/one of a kind holster, so logically any failure rate of that exact type could "only be replicated on a Serpa." No offense intended, but that is kind of a "duh".

The same statement could be made of the Safailand SLS holster - it is proprietorially unique to only the SLS, so could only be replicated on a Safariland SLS.
http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/info/retention.aspx

6) The title of this thread is "Serpa causes finger to slip into the trigger guard too soon?" All we are maintaining is that the Serpa does not "cause" anything. Had the title been "Do some Serpa users fail to follow instructions and/or good practice in using this holster?", then the answers more likely would have been in 100% agreement.

I get what you are saying, hope you likewise understand what my message is.

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
Your words not mine, I was just pulling out the sentence that you said there is a "known issue with the serpa holster". It doesn't matter if you try to back track with fluff what matters is your saying it has a known issue. This is all as we say without supportive documentation to back up your claim other that statements made by some people.

You should be in politics as you seem to speak out both sides of your cheeks....

Either the holster is to blame or the user, unless you have documented facts to back up your statement.....wait you don't never mind.

As I've said on multiple occasions, please point to the post where I said ANYTHING other that that it wasn't the holster that caused the problem.

Since you seem to be ignoring what I'm actually saying, I'll post some documentation for you to peruse:

http://www.gunsite.com/main/wp-cont...ohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...times-gearscout-details-serpa-holster-issues/

This last one is a forum, but the top posts shows a document sent out by FLETC. That's important to note as it carries a lot of weight in the LEO community. Equipment banned by FLETC tends to get less customer base. Not gone, just less.

There's a lot of documentation out there. You just don't want to see it. And I'll say it yet again. There is a very specific failure mode on the Serpa that only occurs on the Serpa. It requires a long series of user errors to get to, but it does happen. And happens frequently enough that places have banned them. I personally disagree with the bans, but knowing the problems and how to avoid them and train to use it properly are good for the community.

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

SD40VE said:
a couple of interesting things i found while looking into serpa holsters (please keep in mind i use a blackhawk CQC holster for my carry pistol i am a supporter of them and have had no issues whatsover with my holster)

SPECIAL BULLETIN
National Training and Emergency Operations Branch
Officer Safety Bulletin

Good Afternoon,

In our efforts to continually stay abreast of issues relating to officer safety, the National Training and Emergency Operations Branch (NTEOB) routinely evaluates the law enforcement equipment issued to or carried by OI personnel.

Recently, one such piece of equipment, the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster, has come under scrutiny due to safety concerns involving the design of its retention safety device. There have been several recent documented cases, involving law enforcement and civilian personnel, where unintentional discharges have occurred while weapons were being drawn from this holster. Many of these unintentional discharges have resulted in gunshot injuries to the officers/agents involved.

The SERPA is one of the only holster system designed to use the trigger finger to release the retention safety device. This method of releasing the safety device is contrary to our training methods and techniques, which emphasize attacking the holster from the "top down." In addition, this retention system is completely different from the standard thumb-break holsters currently issued by OI. While it is true that one of the Cardinal Rules of firearms safety was violated by the individual placing his or her finger on the trigger before they were ready to shoot, we believe that the design of the SERPA holster facilitates this action by engaging the trigger finger well before the individual is prepared to shoot.

In light of these events and in accordance with OI policy, specifically Part 2, Section 2, Subsection IV B, NTEOB is suspending all use of the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster by OI agents acting in an official, on-duty capacity. NTEOB will thoroughly research and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this holster system and report on its findings.

In the meantime, those agents who may be affected by this safety bulletin should be directed to utilize their standard agency-issued holster to secure their weapon on their person. As a reminder, new standard issue holsters were previously issued to all OI 1811s. This is the recommended holster system. Should agents wish to purchase a holster, they should be informed that all holsters have to be approved by National Firearms Coordinator/NTEOB, as per policy.

Thank you in advance for your assistance and cooperation.

http://www.gunsite.com/main/wp-cont...ohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

^^ another note from US forestry service

and a whole blog with the 2 above stories in them

http://pointblank4445.blogspot.com/2012/06/blackhawk-serpa-holster-warning.html

in the end its comes down to user error. if your finger slips into the trigger guard THAT IS YOUR ERROR, if there is debris or dirt that prevents you from drawing, THAT IS YOUR LACK OF MAINTENANCE AND ENSURING THERE IS NOTHING BLOCKING THAT MECHANISM.

user error, seems to be a common cause for the issues. i love my serpa from blackhawk

This is just a way for LE to cover their butts by blaming the equipment rather than the officer. Notice they don't call it ND or Negligent Discarge rather Unitentional Discharge. This is a bullitin from a LE agency placing the blame on anything but the officer that shoots themselves.

Still waiting for real proof that it is the equipment not the user.

What next blaming the police cars for officers motor vehicle incidents?

SD40VE · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
This is just a way for LE to cover their butts by blaming the equipment rather than the officer. Notice they don't call it ND or Negligent Discarge rather Unitentional Discharge. This is a bullitin from a LE agency placing the blame on anything but the officer that shoots themselves.

Still waiting for real proof that it is the equipment not the user.

What next blaming the police cars for officers motor vehicle incidents?

as i said in the very last part. i love my serpa. i have had no issues with it. it comes down to user error and the ability to draw using the said holster under stress. the holster takes the blame for human error.

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
As I've said on multiple occasions, please point to the post where I said ANYTHING other that that it wasn't the holster that caused the problem. But then, we're a bit thick here I guess.

Since you seem to be ignoring what I'm actually saying, I'll post some documentation for you to peruse:

http://www.gunsite.com/main/wp-cont...ohibiting-Use-of-Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters.pdf

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...times-gearscout-details-serpa-holster-issues/

This last one is a forum, but the top posts shows a document sent out by FLETC. That's important to note as it carries a lot of weight in the LEO community. Equipment banned by FLETC tends to get less customer base. Not gone, just less.

There's a lot of documentation out there. You just don't want to see it. And I'll say it yet again. There is a very specific failure mode on the Serpa that only occurs on the Serpa. It requires a long series of user errors to get to, but it does happen. And happens frequently enough that places have banned them. I personally disagree with the bans, but knowing the problems and how to avoid them and train to use it properly are good for the community.

Lets see your source are one from an agency that is trying to place blame for officers incompotence and the other is from a guy that the article even said "is a serpa secptic".

You can quote me I don't like ford trucks that they are defective. You can freely us me as a source as an expert since I owned a ford truck at one time....lets get it out there that ford trucks are defective......

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

SD40VE said:
as i said in the very last part. i love my serpa. i have had no issues with it. it comes down to user error and the ability to draw using the said holster under stress. the holster takes the blame for human error.

I agree with you this is a way to say "see the officer didn't do it out of stupidity" the gun or in this case the holster did it......

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

Grapeshot said:
First let's clear the air on a few things.

1) A difference of opinion should be a discussion (what I thought we were having) not an argument as you claim.

2) The primary purpose of the mechanism jamming if not released in the proper sequence is IMO for active retention when physically active AND to help prevent gun snatches - the Serpa accomplishes that.

3) Nothing is ever 100% excluded including that a stone or stick might jamb up an open top (no retention) holster.

4) I'm not "Flamed UP" - I am shaking my head at the accusation though.

5) The Serpa is a unique/one of a kind holster, so logically any failure rate of that exact type could "only be replicated on a Serpa." No offense intended, but that is kind of a "duh".

The same statement could be made of the Safailand SLS holster - it is proprietorially unique to only the SLS, so could only be replicated on a Safariland SLS.
http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/info/retention.aspx

6) The title of this thread is "Serpa causes finger to slip into the trigger guard too soon?" All we are maintaining is that the Serpa does not "cause" anything. Had the title been "Do some Serpa users fail to follow instructions and/or good practice in using this holster?", then the answers more likely would have been in 100% agreement.

I get what you are saying, hope you likewise understand what my message is.

For starters, my post wasn't directed at you specifically but to Doc. The part I was aiming at you was that you are saying I'm trying to make this out to be a design flaw in the Serpa that implies I am opposed to the holster in some way. The argument portion was more for Doc.

with that in mind:

1) The fixation on finger control is the issue to me. A lot of people here are saying "use proper finger indexing and you'll be fine." That's only partially true. The main issue is that you guys are refusing to work through the mode of failure here to understand the exact issue and planting it directly on finger indexing only. That's not the problem here. The problem is the mode that the Serpa fails and understanding what that is.

2) I agree. It does make it a safe holster in the threat of attack and gun grab. I wouldn't argue otherwise.

3)Again, agreed. But this is a Serpa thread. Not an "all holsters have problems" thread. Each holster has it's unique issues. I've said that many times. If you choose to use a holster, then know it's issues to be able to avoid them. If that's as simple as be sure to proper index and press the button BEFORE you start your draw, so be it. New users at lease need to know that.

4) wasn't leveled at you, so no need to shake. Frankly, you've been a lot less hot headed than others.

5)Failure rate is not the same as failure mode. Hence a large part of the problem here. The failure rates of holsters is irrelevant to me. They all fail. It's the exact mode of failure that is pertinent. And the Serpa mode of failure is unique to the Serpa because of the location of the strong side trigger finger and it's use to deactivate the locking mechanism. No other holster uses that method, therefore no other holster could fail in the same way. That doesn't make the Safariland better, just different. The mode of failure of the Safariland is different and unique to it. But this thread isn't about Safariland.

6) As I've said from the very beginning. The Serpa doesn't cause the problem. It's the user. But the Serpa fails (due to user error) in a very specific and clearly explained way that is unique to it's design. Knowing that is beneficial to the user.

What amazes me is the blatant mischaracterizing of my posts. Not by you, but by others. Why would I defend a position I don't hold? Why would I try to defend a position that says it's a design flaw when I don't believe it is? EVERY SINGLE post I've made has been clear that I believe this is a user error and can be avoided easily with training in a proper fashion. I merely implied that the Serpa has a failure mode that we should be aware of so as to help new shooters if they choose to use a Serpa. UPDATE: I also implied that I understood the bans because big training sites tend to deal more with new shooters than smaller sites and that new untrained users would see the Serpa failure mode more often due to user errors being more common among new shooters. Why is that such an amazingly offensive thing to some people? (Not you personally, Grapeshot.)

SD40VE · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
I agree with you this is a way to say "see the officer didn't do it out of stupidity" the gun or in this case the holster did it......

indeed, the office shot himself because he was going into a gun fight, or into a dark room, and made an error when attempting to draw his firearm from his holster. omg a cop shot himself while using a blackhark duty holster, lets ban them and say they are bad holsters since our officers havent practiced drawing properly enough to be able to do it on a consistent basis.... under stress or not. ive probably "practiced" drawing from my serpa over 1000 times. not every time is perfect, especially when going for a speedy draw. i know this is due to me not the holster. i blame myself not the holster. thankfully im not retarded enough to do these "dry runs" with a chambered round...

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
Lets see your source are one from an agency that is trying to place blame for officers incompotence and the other is from a guy that the article even said "is a serpa secptic".

You can quote me I don't like ford trucks that they are defective. You can freely us me as a source as an expert since I owned a ford truck at one time....lets get it out there that ford trucks are defective......

And you're making assumptions about what I'm saying without actually reading it. Not sure if it's just because you have to "win" an argument that you keep implying what I'm saying without actually realizing what I'm saying. Like a Don Quixote thing or something.

You have still not posted the reference to where I said that it was Serpa's fault. Or to where I said it wasn't user error. Or to where I bashed Serpa. Or to ANYTHING you claim I said. Because I didn't say ANY thing you say I did. So now you try to force me to back up a position that I never claimed to hold. The documents I posted are documents from respected places. They show there is an issue with the Serpa. I don't agree that it's a design flaw and despite your claims, I never said that. I said it's a unique failure to the Serpa and more involved than simple finger indexing. One that should be known to people so they can teach the correct methods. But as is obvious to anyone else out there, does actually happen. Stop claiming I said things I didn't. That or prove I said them. Until then, you're being dishonest.

DocWalker · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
And you're making assumptions about what I'm saying without actually reading it. Not sure if it's just because you have to "win" an argument that you keep implying what I'm saying without actually realizing what I'm saying. Like a Don Quixote thing or something.

You have still not posted the reference to where I said that it was Serpa's fault. Or to where I said it wasn't user error. Or to where I bashed Serpa. Or to ANYTHING you claim I said. Because I didn't say ANY thing you say I did. So now you try to force me to back up a position that I never claimed to hold. The documents I posted are documents from respected places. They show there is an issue with the Serpa. I don't agree that it's a design flaw and despite your claims, I never said that. I said it's a unique failure to the Serpa and more involved than simple finger indexing. One that should be known to people so they can teach the correct methods. But as is obvious to anyone else out there, does actually happen. Stop claiming I said things I didn't. That or prove I said them. Until then, you're being dishonest.

How about your post #75, you make it pretty clear that the serpa is the only holster that has this problem.

What about your posts that said it was a design flaw?

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

DocWalker said:
How about your post #75, you make it pretty clear that the serpa is the only holster that has this problem.

What about your posts that said it was a design flaw?

First, the fact that a holster has a unique issue doesn't make it a bad holster. That's a problem you have to accept. I never said the holster was bad. The fact is, this particular issue cannot be replicated on any other holster because the Serpa is the only active retention holster to utilize the trigger finger to deactivate. And the exact mode of failure is not present on any other holster. That makes it unique to the Serpa. Being unique to Serpa doesn't make it Serpa's fault. I've never claimed it was Serpa's fault. They are 2 different thoughts that you need to separate.

Please, show me the post I said it was a design flaw. Please. I begged before. I'd sure love to see this mythical post?

I said "Is it a design flaw? No." Did you happen to read that wrong?

Grapeshot · Nov 18, 2013

mobiushky said:
--snipped--

3)Again, agreed. But this is a Serpa thread. Not an "all holsters have problems" thread.

Actually you opened the door to comparison of other holsters in you post #104 where you said,

"I would like you to show me any other holster on the market that binds both the gun and the release mechanism so that neither can be operated if you accidentally draw without pressing the release button. Go ahead."

Could also have mentioned the SIGTAC Retention holster
http://www.amazon.com/SigTac-Retention-Paddle-Holster-Compac/dp/B005KW6YB2

or the SLVE retention holster.
http://www.shomer-tec.com/product/duty-holsters-by-slve-1486.cfm

My point is that there are others that deserve consideration as comparables and it is not for you to so restrict the thread, especially after opening that door.

mobiushky · Nov 18, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Actually you opened the door to comparison of other holsters in you post #104 where you said,

"I would like you to show me any other holster on the market that binds both the gun and the release mechanism so that neither can be operated if you accidentally draw without pressing the release button. Go ahead."

Could also have mentioned the SIGTAC Retention holster
http://www.amazon.com/SigTac-Retention-Paddle-Holster-Compac/dp/B005KW6YB2

or the SLVE retention holster.
http://www.shomer-tec.com/product/duty-holsters-by-slve-1486.cfm

My point is that there are others that deserve consideration as comparables and it is not for you to so restrict the thread, especially after opening that door.

Fair point. My point in stating that was not to say that "Serpa is the only bad holster". Not at all. My point was to say that this particular mode of failure does not happen with other holsters. The SigTac and the SLVE look to be similar in function, but having never seen or heard of them, I personally can't say if they have the same steps to failure. My guess is they don't and they have their own particular issues that would need to be addressed. SLVE even says in the description:

"Learning to use this holster takes about 5 minutes and proficiency is mastered in about 2 hours."

Which sort of implies it's more than just strap it on and your fine.

My point about other styles was in relation to other more commonly used. Apologies.

UPDATE: Watching several of the SLVE videos, I can already point to one failure mode that is unique to the SLVE. I know that probably means I'm bashing it and hate it's grandma too. If the user doesn't fully rack the slide on an empty chamber, it's possible (at least on Glocks) to rack the slide far enough to engage the trigger, but not far enough to chamber a round. Meaning, if the user short strokes the gun they come up with an empty chamber and hear a click. That's a failure mode that doesn't exist on other holsters. So, if you like the SLVE, be sure to train properly to avoid that condition. Oh great, now I've bashed the SLVE and I'm gonna get all kinds of crap from the SLVE crowd aren't I?

Interesting though about the SLVE. From their owners brochure:

"The index finger button is followed by a ledge. This was specifically designed for the time during removal of the weapon to ensure that the index finger slides away from the trigger zone and safely lands on the breechblock upon removal."

Serpa causes finger to slip into trigger guard too soon?

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