Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Back ground check="registration"?

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Owingsville,KY
    Posts
    1,039

    Back ground check="registration"?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n-Registration

    I was reading the above story in the PA. forum and wondered if KY. is the same way. Long story short, the thread talks about LE being able to run a persons information (DL,SSN,etc) and being able to obtain serial numbers from guns that said person had purchased from a FFL. Is anyone aware of a statute that states that such records are to be destroyed after a certain amount of time or if this is even an option for KY. LE?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boone County, KY
    Posts
    312
    Pennsylvania is a POC (Point of Contact) State which means the State does the background checks instead of using the Fed NICS. Having the state doing the background checks opens up 'possibilities' that the state will also collect 'additional' information than what the Feds do. As that thread says, Washington State does this as well and they are too a 'POC state.

    Kentucky uses Federal NICS for both handguns and long guns. Therefore there is no information going to Frankfort on what you bought at the LGS (Local Gun Store) because they call the Fed NICS not the State POC NICS...there is no State POC here in KY.

    Some people think having the state doing the NICS instead of the Fed NICS is a good idea...well it isn't.

    (Supposedly the state DOES run checks WITH the FED NICS on their CDWL holders. One source said it was monthly, another source said periodically. But the back ground checks they do has nothing on what you bought. But rather just to see if CDWL holders still have clean back ground checks)

    .
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

  3. #3
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Owingsville,KY
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest View Post
    Pennsylvania is a POC (Point of Contact) State which means the State does the background checks instead of using the Fed NICS. Having the state doing the background checks opens up 'possibilities' that the state will also collect 'additional' information than what the Feds do. As that thread says, Washington State does this as well and they are too a 'POC state.

    Kentucky uses Federal NICS for both handguns and long guns. Therefore there is no information going to Frankfort on what you bought at the LGS (Local Gun Store) because they call the Fed NICS not the State POC NICS...there is no State POC here in KY.

    Some people think having the state doing the NICS instead of the Fed NICS is a good idea...well it isn't.

    (Supposedly the state DOES run checks WITH the FED NICS on their CDWL holders. One source said it was monthly, another source said periodically. But the back ground checks they do has nothing on what you bought. But rather just to see if CDWL holders still have clean back ground checks)

    .
    I bet those stay on file forever. I thought I read somewhere that they were supposed to be destroyed every 30 days or so, but I doubt they are.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boone County, KY
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I bet those stay on file forever. I thought I read somewhere that they were supposed to be destroyed every 30 days or so, but I doubt they are.



    Here is the information about Kentucky doing periodic background checks. I asked the OP about more information on it and he didn't respond.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...0085&page=4#99
    Last edited by Midwest; 10-23-2013 at 03:43 PM.
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Used to be the only gun specific query was: handgun or long gun (for age reasons I guess) and not S&W 686 v. Winchester 64...

    Still the same or has it changed?

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Olive Hill, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    186
    Additionally those who have valid Concealed Carry Permits are exempt from the background check. Present the CCW, Operators License, fill out the 4473 and pay the dealer.

    Takes about 2-3 minutes and you are out the door.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    At the end of the day, I don't think it matters too much. With no paper trail for private party transactions, that form of "registration" isn't accurate. If there, by some strange chance, was an inquiry for a gun in my possession--well then, I guess it was lost in the boating accident.

  8. #8
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Owingsville,KY
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    Additionally those who have valid Concealed Carry Permits are exempt from the background check. Present the CCW, Operators License, fill out the 4473 and pay the dealer.

    Takes about 2-3 minutes and you are out the door.
    I thought the 4473 was the background check. What is it?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  9. #9
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I thought the 4473 was the background check. What is it?
    The 4473 is the Firearms Transaction Record (a copy of which can be found here), and the information on it is used to perform the background check. As I understand it, the dealer is required to enter (at least some of) the information from the 4473 into the bound book, and also to keep the completed 4473 on file for 20 years.
    Christian, Husband, Father
    NRA Life Member
    NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

    Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
    IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I thought the 4473 was the background check. What is it?
    Its not a BR check .. just a form that the dealer has the buyer & seller to complete. Its not sent to the gov't unless the dealer goes out of business although the gov't has a right to inspect the record produced.

    The form is online...if you want to read it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Liberty
    Posts
    60
    I would hope KY is not like this. I did hear once that the police or nat guard (or any entity like that) can go into a LGS and,in times like NOLA with Katrina, look at those and know who to target but I don't know for sure. Ky has a law that prevents that kind of confiscation anyway.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by rs3604 View Post
    I would hope KY is not like this. I did hear once that the police or nat guard (or any entity like that) can go into a LGS and,in times like NOLA with Katrina, look at those and know who to target but I don't know for sure. Ky has a law that prevents that kind of confiscation anyway.
    Well, I asked my state police for a list of their guns (because now they want our list of certain assault weapons ~ so I asked for theirs). They stated to give out the information creates a safety risk for various individuals.

    So I agree .. registration does create a safety risk for gun owners, people who own guns to protect themselves from the government.

    And the law that prevents confiscation? Its just a piece of paper...will not protect you IMO.

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    A 4473 is a firearms registration mechanism. You may choose to believe that the government would not use this data, I choose to believe that the government will use this data at their pleasure regardless of the lawfulness of the justification to gain access to the data. I believe, yet cannot prove, that every 4473 is recorded (retained) in a location (database) far removed from any FFL's bound book.

    Section D of form 4473 does not appear to me to be optional, thus the firearm is registered with the government.

    Read the Paperwork Reduction Act Notice. http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downl...f-f-4473-1.pdf

    With a e-Form 4473 the data is even lass secure and far more easily obtained by LE. In fact, I think the e-Form eliminates the need for a cop to actually go to the FFL to collect the recorded firearm information.
    All retail firearms transaction are registered with the feds, and likely the state. Local LEAs likely have to ask the state or the feds for the data.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137

    Upin?

    Since I have moved to Washington State, I cannot seem to get past the NICS. Every purchase I make, long gun or pistol, is held up. I have a relative who is notorious. He is a union official and has not quite been on the straight and narrow. We share the same name. Has anyone used the UPIN option? I have been told that it will expedite the NICS check and I could avoid the wait. Has anyone any info on this?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  15. #15
    Regular Member LEX_XDM40compact's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    LEX, KY
    Posts
    83
    Simply put yes and no to OP.

    S/N as mentioned are recorded by every Gun Shop FFL holder and recorded in the book. That same book has a spot for both where the gun came from and where it went to, Even in the case if the holder kept it himself.

    These records are held per law by the FFL from the ATF in a safe and secure place for x amount of years.

    However when you purchase a gun from an FFL holder and they call NICS ( back ground check ) in regards to the firearm you purchase they do NOT give any information other than Long Gun or Hand Gun when running the check.

    Sure they could compile a list ( im sure they do) of John Smith has attempted / purchased 46 long guns and 12 handguns etc, But they would not know without going direct to the FFL in which sold you that firearm, cracked open the safe the book is in and get the serial.

    Also idk if its Off topic or On Topic some CCDW class instructors mark your serial number down when they 'inspect' your firearm for safety during the class. However again its known to be said that that paper never leaves the instructors hands unless need be by law.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Since I have moved to Washington State, I cannot seem to get past the NICS. Every purchase I make, long gun or pistol, is held up. I have a relative who is notorious. He is a union official and has not quite been on the straight and narrow. We share the same name. Has anyone used the UPIN option? I have been told that it will expedite the NICS check and I could avoid the wait. Has anyone any info on this?
    All of the following is based on being in KY and may or may not apply to your state..
    I have not heard of the UPIN option, However I do know you can opt into giving your SSN when you purchase a firearm which is used to help weed out anyone with the same name as you within that state etc.

    Also if you get "on hold" or "denied" status they must follow the procedure to given you a certain denial. IE as in your case a mistake in ID. If not it can be up to the dealer to proceed with your selling.

    The NICS Examiner will provide the FFL with the date of the third business day after the firearm check was initiated. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated, Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed. If the FFL has not received from the NICS a final determination after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473. It is recommended the FFL record the date provided in the delay response on which the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS.
    see http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...ion/fact-sheet for more information.
    Last edited by LEX_XDM40compact; 11-07-2013 at 12:17 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    73
    My understanding is that it is prohibited for any federal agency to compile a database of guns to owners.
    If the feds need a cross reference they have to call the dealer and ask them to 'look it up'.
    When a dealer goes belly up then are supposed to send their papers to the feds where it is retained.
    The feds are forced to do a finger to paper search. No electronics.

    But it wouldn't surprise me if some fed nerd has a program that criss crosses several availible databases to come up with a 'quick search'.

  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    My understanding is that it is prohibited for any federal agency to compile a database of private communications without a properly issued search warrant. As I have stated, the feds will do, or do not, at their pleasure regardless of the lawfulness of their doing or not doing.

    NSA anyone?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Western Kentucky
    Posts
    129
    I bought a few guns when I lived in Maryland, I have bought more guns when I lived in Florida, and now that I live in Kentucky, I have bought even more guns, both blackpowder and modern cartridge. I have never had to fill out any paperwork, never went through a background check, and never had to register any of my guns, and I never plan on doing so. All of my guns are legal, and I have never been convicted of a crime, either misdemeanor or felony. How do I do it? Easy. I never buy from a gun store, unless it's a blackpowder gun, I buy from gun shows and from private sales. Like the name of this thread, Back ground check="registration", and registration leads to confiscation.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    You brought up a dead thread to pass misinformation?

    The background check is not a clear definition of who has a firearm. I can legally buy a firearm, give it to my girlfriend, who sales it to her cousin, who trades it to his neighbor, who "loans" it to a stripper.

    Also, what if after the background check you find the exact same gun online for less and don't go through with the sale?

    The paperwork you fill out should stay with the FFL until 10 years, when it can be destroyed, or sent to the ATF, if they go out of business.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Western Kentucky
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I've never understood the logic of a person avoiding 4473 forms and background checks to keep their purchases secret, then OC'ing where everyone can see that they own firearms and what kind make/model they own.
    It's none of the governments business as to what, or how many guns I own. My name and address is not on any list of gun owners that can be obtained by anyone. I don't buy from gun stores mostly because they over price their guns, and I can find what I want from the gun shows at a lower price and without having to fill out any paper work, or waiting three days to take possession. Cash and carry is, and will always be the only way I buy a gun. As far as open carry goes, people will only see one of the many guns I own, and they don't know who I am, where I live, or what else I own.
    Last edited by Chief Ten Beers; 01-28-2014 at 03:03 PM.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •