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Thread: "Because we're trained"

  1. #1
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    "Because we're trained"

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...#axzz2iZ8NJWEz

    Kalifornia hero injures 3 students during "safety demonstration". Coverage is lacking because it was a hero. Can you imagine if a licensed "civilian" did this?
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Three in one ND, I can't imagine and don't want to. Remember the German fairy tale of The Valiant Little Tailor, "Seven at one blow!" Better that than the post-modern horror story of "I'm the only one here professional enough to ... OW, damn!"

    Google Real Time coverage
    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...89a999e1b67dc6

    The gun that misfired was mounted on a police motorbike, according to a Chino police official.
    The mind boggles
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-23-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Can't wait for all of the people to come in and talk about how only a finger pulling the trigger can cause a long gun to fire.

    Can't decide if I hope they're right or wrong in this case.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 10-23-2013 at 07:40 PM.

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    I've said it before: we train monkeys, not people.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Can you imagine if a licensed "civilian" did this?
    If a licensed civilian had a firearm secured on his motorcycle and a student managed to cause a discharge .... his name wouldn't be shielded.

    Did anyone notice a name that's NOT in the report?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamrin Olden, a spokeswoman for the Chino Police Department
    A student fired an AR-15 rifle that was mounted on a police motorcycle that was on display during an event for students
    Having a loaded firearm present as a part of a display, is just pure negligence and should be treated as such.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-24-2013 at 07:41 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Safety no engaged after round loaded into chamber. The cop is liable for several failures in firearm safety. Unless of course there is no official LEA policy that requires that that type of loaded firearm have the safety engaged.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Kids these days play Call of Duty and a host of other games. I saw them come into the shop where I worked and knew almost everything there was to know about a weapon system before they could legally get a learner's permit.

    No reason why a kid, even a completely knowledgeable one, couldn't flip the safety on an AR while fiddling with the fire control group.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-24-2013 at 07:40 PM.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    we train monkeys
    Speak for yourself.



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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It is noteworthy that none of you have bothered to cite that it was some student that pulled the trigger. I guess that would spoil the "all cops are bad any only do bad things" meme.

    The fact that the cop brought a loaded firearm that was not under his immediate control appears to be a violation of Cali law. The odds of anyone being cited for that seem pretty low. We will probably have to waitfor the parents' lawsuits against the cop, the PD, and the school to see how that is dealt with.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It is noteworthy that none of you have bothered to cite that it was some student that pulled the trigger. I guess that would spoil the "all cops are bad any only do bad things" meme. [ ... ]
    Naw, not "spoil", but icing on the cake, gilding the lilly or lipstick on a pig.

    I had not mentioned it because that fact was not known when I moved on twenty-four hours ago. I'll remember to dwell on such incidents a bit more.
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  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    You can bet your ass if I let some kid have access to the trigger on my rifle, which ended up discharging and causing injury to THREE kids, I would be criminally prosecuted.

    Yet again, we see that certain... animals are more equal than others.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    You can bet your ass if I let some kid have access to the trigger on my rifle, which ended up discharging and causing injury to THREE kids, I would be criminally prosecuted.

    Yet again, we see that certain... animals are more equal than others.
    Pfftt. You forget some animals have been more equal than others for quite some time. We're practically at that stage where Napoleon is always right.

    OT: would like to see a lawsuit, and hopefully some super-emotional pleas from MOMs () for sanctions on the negligent LEO, "for the children".
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 10-24-2013 at 05:24 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It is noteworthy that none of you have bothered to cite that it was some student that pulled the trigger. I guess that would spoil the "all cops are bad any only do bad things" meme.

    The fact that the cop brought a loaded firearm that was not under his immediate control appears to be a violation of Cali law. The odds of anyone being cited for that seem pretty low. We will probably have to waitfor the parents' lawsuits against the cop, the PD, and the school to see how that is dealt with.
    Try post #5
    Or post #7
    The news report clearly stated that it was a student that operated the trigger. What we (or at lest I) find remarkable is that a police officer was negligent enough to bring a loaded weapon to use as part of a 'display set' and further negligent enough to not have control over his loaded weapon.

    It should have been cleared, there is no reasonable explanation for having a loaded weapon as part of a 'display' where kids are assuredly going to touch, prod, and poke.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-24-2013 at 07:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I've said it before: we train monkeys, not people.
    You may want to inform yourself of the difference between teaching and training.

    I'd much rather have someone who was trained as an EMT than someone who was merely taught to be an EMT responding to a medical emergency.
    As you can see in today's school system, you can teach a student all quarter and they may never learn anything. Training inherently produces a skill set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You may want to inform yourself of the difference between teaching and training.

    I'd much rather have someone who was trained as an EMT than someone who was merely taught to be an EMT responding to a medical emergency.
    As you can see in today's school system, you can teach a student all quarter and they may never learn anything. Training inherently produces a skill set.
    When I was a teacher, the difference between education and training was explained this way: When your kid attends health class do you want him or her to get sex education or sex training?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You can teach all day, but only training gives feedback.

    Would you rather someone stand at the front of a class and teach how to draw from a holster (as a mild example) with PowerPoint presentations, an open book test and flash cards....
    ...or...
    ... someone one who trained the students to draw from the holster?

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Training inherently produces a skill set.
    And how do you reconcile this statement with, say, the NYPD?


  18. #18
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    And how do you reconcile this statement with, say, the NYPD?
    Click image for larger version. 

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  19. #19
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Wsiting to see if the hero gets a paid vaca or not.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It is noteworthy that none of you have bothered to cite that it was some student that pulled the trigger. I guess that would spoil the "all cops are bad any only do bad things" meme.

    The fact that the cop brought a loaded firearm that was not under his immediate control appears to be a violation of Cali law. The odds of anyone being cited for that seem pretty low. We will probably have to waitfor the parents' lawsuits against the cop, the PD, and the school to see how that is dealt with.

    stay safe.
    I guess it all depends on how you define bad. You appear to be stuck on one commonly used definition of bad.

    A "show and tell" day.

    Cite the law you imply that the cop violated. Unless of course the word "appears" absolves you of providing a cite. Though, I am just as lazy as you are on this point and will take your word for it.

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    I believe that the weapon was attached to a MC it would be nice to know what type and make of mount it was in.

    It would be nice to know the ages of the so called children.

    It would be nice to know it they worked the action chambered a round and pulled the trigger.

    99 percent of the time when LEO carry their long guns in a vehicle mount its empty chamber with magazine inserted.

    A proper vehicle mount doesn't allow for access to the trigger.

    The officer should have removed the mag as the MC was being used as a display. The Children should not have been playing with it.

    So what really happen failure of the mount or improper mount, failure of the officer to remove the mag, failure of the children to not behave properly.

    Most likely a combination of all.

    Granted not having a mag in or having a empty mag for show would have been most prudent on a display vehicle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I guess it all depends on how you define bad. You appear to be stuck on one commonly used definition of bad.

    A "show and tell" day.

    Cite the law you imply that the cop violated. Unless of course the word "appears" absolves you of providing a cite. Though, I am just as lazy as you are on this point and will take your word for it.
    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=25200-25225

    ..but when you read further down, you notice:

    25205. Section 25200 does not apply if any of the following are
    true:

    (e) The person is a peace officer or a member of the Armed Forces
    or National Guard and the child obtains the firearm during, or
    incidental to, the performance of the person's duties.
    I bet they try to get him off using the above.
    Last edited by FlyBoy276; 10-25-2013 at 11:17 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    The biggest thing for me about this is that we're not allowed to protect our children in government schools, only the "trained authorities" are which is a sick joke, as proved by common sense and countless negligent and human acts by the hero class.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I've said it before: we train monkeys, not people.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Da Rat Bastid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    When I was a teacher, the difference between education and training was explained this way: When your kid attends health class do you want him or her to get sex education or sex training?
    As the saying goes, why not both?

    *beat*
    *watches with no real surprise as eye95's head asplodes*

    I suspected as much.

    ADDENDUM: High school, yes. Earlier....eh, not so much. I just realized that, when I made the post originally, I was pondering how many people have an overly broad definition of "kid".
    Last edited by Da Rat Bastid; 10-28-2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: clarification

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