• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

would this child be alive if OC was legal in California ?

onus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
699
Location
idaho
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/calif-sheriffs-deputies-shoot-kill-13-year-old


California banned the open carry of long guns last year. Prior to that, it was legal and possible for law abiding citizens to open carry long guns.

Now that its illegal, in a cops eye and mind, only a criminal would open carry.

So a cop is driving down the street and he sees a child carrying what appears to be a long gun and he automatically thinks "dangerous criminal".

Cop shoots and kills kid.

In my opinion, if open carry was still legal in California it would have at least given the cop a possibility that this person wasn't breaking any law and should approach with an open mind.

Also, since previously in California open carry was only legal if the gun was unloaded, the police had good reason to believe the gun wasn't an immediate threat.

Since unloaded open carry was banned, the officer had to think this gun was loaded and carried by a criminal.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
I think it's a combination of things. Some California cops are out of control, and that's partly because of gang activity and the rich targets out there. Would they have shot anyway? Jeeze I don't know. I mean here cops have shot people in their driveways checking their cars, in their garages, in mistaken houses. A little 5'2, 105lb filipino woman holding a paring knife was shot 5 times in Costco.

Your premise does have some validity in theory, but then Ca cops have always been against open carry and long gun carry, even when it was legal and looked for ways to hook people up, stopping guys OC-ing who were walking their dogs, fer kristsake.
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
There is insufficient information about this incident to draw any reasonable conclusions.

Without knowing definatively whether the boy complied with the deputies intructions or turned and raised the replica as if to fire, making any deductions about whether it had anything to do with the ban on long gun open carry is purely academic.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
A sad situation. Gang shootings, and other violent acts are fairly common in Kalifonia... and cops like to go home to their families after shift. Put them together, shake them up and you have a deadly cocktail. I hope there was a police dashcam in operation during this incident, and that it will show the story as it truly unfolded. I would imagine that killing a child is a very heavy burden upon one's soul, especially if there was no justifiable immediate threat present. On the other hand, being dead yourself has no positive aspects to it, and the widows and children of slain officers also carry a heavy burden. Will the truth be known? BTSOM. :( Pax...
 

MattinWA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
278
Location
Spokane Washington
Interesting. Saw a news clip on this incident just now.

in court it had an officer holding up 2 kalashnikov style rifles, one being real, one being the childs airsoft.
the airsoft had the end of the barrel missing, ya know the orange part?

Makes me wonder who removed it.
 

MattinWA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
278
Location
Spokane Washington
The entire end of the barrel has been removed, including the front sight, and the comp/flash suppressor, which would have been bright orange. Who removed this would tell alot about this story
 

Robin47

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
545
Location
Susanville, California, USA
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/calif-sheriffs-deputies-shoot-kill-13-year-old


California banned the open carry of long guns last year. Prior to that, it was legal and possible for law abiding citizens to open carry long guns.

Now that its illegal, in a cops eye and mind, only a criminal would open carry.

So a cop is driving down the street and he sees a child carrying what appears to be a long gun and he automatically thinks "dangerous criminal".

Cop shoots and kills kid.

In my opinion, if open carry was still legal in California it would have at least given the cop a possibility that this person wasn't breaking any law and should approach with an open mind.

Also, since previously in California open carry was only legal if the gun was unloaded, the police had good reason to believe the gun wasn't an immediate threat.

Since unloaded open carry was banned, the officer had to think this gun was loaded and carried by a criminal.



I Agree, however It is a sad day for that family, and we should back them up.
I hope they sue to the hilt !
There are TO MANY stupid gun laws in this state.
We should unite like Arizona, and Nevada, and fight all these bad gun laws.

There is not a group of OC'ers that I know of in this state that is organised to fight these laws.
We all should call our Congressman and demand that AB 144 and that dumb law AB1527 I believe it was
for no rifle carry be repeal Immediately.
What I think of the shooting was a tragedy and negligent homicide.
I fell bad for the family.

I wonder if Calguns would get Involved ?
The boy was carrying a toy pistol in his waistband also.

If UOC was still legal they would have had to "Check his toy gun" to see it was not loaded !

Sad day for the State of California. :(
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
There is insufficient information about this incident to draw any reasonable conclusions.

Without knowing definatively whether the boy complied with the deputies intructions or turned and raised the replica as if to fire, making any deductions about whether it had anything to do with the ban on long gun open carry is purely academic.

Maybe C3 ... but if OC was legal, it could not have resulted in any worse of a result for the poor kid.
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
Maybe C3 ... but if OC was legal, it could not have resulted in any worse of a result for the poor kid.

Okay. Let's assume that open carry of a long gun was still legal in all areas of California.

The boy would still be dead if he turned and pointed a real or fake AK-47 at police. This is one of many facts that we do not know. This is why speculation is not helpful- we do not have all the facts. The outcome may very well have been identical.
 

warriorup

New member
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
2
Location
texas
Cops are in a real bind with anything looking like a real firearm. There is a crime site called warriorspathredux.com that has a lot of videos of cops getting shot. I would guess that cops are probably shown video in there training of other cops getting injured and/or killed and why that may have happened. It would be strange if they didn't use video as a learning tool. What I'm getting at is that, in general it seems, the cops that were hit were the ones where the bad guy shot first. I powerful motivator for them I'm sure, but shooting first and asking questions later is not law enforcement. So whether OC or CC is legal or not, I don't think it really changes anything for a cop. For their own safety they have to assume it is real. Now I also would think that they knowingly assume the risk of having to wait just by being cops. As for the airsoft firearm, taking off the orange tip to an airsoft gun and carrying it around is just really weird. I have a perfect replica of a sig saurer not counting the orange tip. Taking that orange tip off and carrying it around is asking for a misunderstanding of grand dimensions. Clearly horrific and tragic in this situation. Like other's have said. Having video of the encounter would make a world of difference.
 

Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
The entire end of the barrel has been removed, including the front sight, and the comp/flash suppressor, which would have been bright orange. Who removed this would tell alot about this story

+1 The Deputy could not easily distinguish the non-lethal "assault rifle" with the ORANGE portion removed from it's very lethal counterpart. California has so many well-armed street gangs (well-armed compared to the patrol officer, as in illegally acquired automatic weapons), that the patrol LEO's probably get real "skittish" when faced with any weapon that appears capable of firing multiple projectiles with a single pull of the trigger. Whoever modified the TOY, should be held responsible for the death of young Lopez... not the cop. Pax...
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,428
Location
northern wis
Not a good thing to shoot a child holding a toy gun.

If it was not a toy and person holding it if he was good with it less then a second to put rounds on target, not so good a couple of seconds, poor with it 5 to 10 seconds to put rounds on target.

Shot time periods to decide if it was real or a toy guessing wrong the out come isn't good for the officer.

I noticed a huge different on how officers handle these type of calls depending on the area they work and gun laws of those areas.

The officers that work large rural areas where guns are common and people walking with them are common at times of the year are not very jumpy when they see some one carrying.

Those from cities where guns are out lawed or not common readily pull guns issue harsh commands even if the person is legally in procession.

This was illustrated during this training scenario.

Set two fellows shooting after hours at the local public gun range.

The rural officers walked in alert and ready and calmly had a nice conversation them about shooting after hours and their guns. Told them it was not a good idea as it could bring a lot of problems for the range and that they needed to leave.

The big city officers went in with guns drawn in full tactical mode and started yelling commands at them ready to arrest or shoot them.

The political climate, the attitude of management, the area, the legal procession laws all have a effect on how an officer handles a man with a gun call.

Plus how the call comes in and explained to dispatch and the officer has a huge effect also.

Yes it very much makes a different if guns are legal to carry or not and the officers are use to it.
 
Top