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Thread: Detained and booted

  1. #1
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    Detained and booted

    I got caught without my voice recorder this morning. I know, never leave the house without it.

    I was going into Wal Mart on the Thruway in Lafayette early this morning. As soon as I entered, the Sheriff inside called for me to stop. I complied and the sheriff asked me what I was doing with the firearm. I explained to him that the open carrying of a firearm is legal in the state of Louisiana. I then asked him if I was being detained. He said that I wasn't, so I turned to leave. He ordered me to stop, which I did. I asked again if I was being detained or if I was free to go. He acknowledged that I was being detained and ordered me to place my hands above my head for his safety, with which I complied. I asked why I was being detained and he pointed to my firearm.

    I explained again that the weapon was being carried legally. He asked if I had a concealed carry permit. I told him that I did not need one. At this time he ordered me to take a seat with my hands above my head and stepped aside with the second sheriff that was there. She actually explained to him that there was nothing illegal with what I was doing.

    After their chat, he came back and asked for my ID. I gave him my name and birth date. He again asked for ID and I refused to show my ID, and explained to him that this was an illegal detention.

    He called the store manager and asked what the policy was for firearms in the store. She said that she needed to check and left.
    At this time the original officer stepped outside, presumably to run my name. I explained to the female officer that I was upset and that I was going to file a complaint. She quickly said that it was the other officer that had detained me and that she understood that there were no illegalities involved with what I was doing.
    The manager returned and said that store policy was that no firearms allowed, because she didn't know if I was going to rob the store.
    I asked officer friendly if I could leave, and she said that I could.

    On the way out, officer bully stopped me. I asked if I was free to go. He said yes and I turned to walk away. He again stopped me and I repeated "Am I free to go".
    He said he wanted to talk, and I repeated "Am I free to go". Every time that he started to ask a question, I repeated "Am I free to go."
    It only took ten or fifteen repeats for him to relent and allow me on my way.

    I've already sent Wal Mart corporate an email, but here's the kicker.
    I called the Sheriff's department and spoke to the supervisor on duty. I explained to him what went down.
    I won't go into a large amount of details due to the length of my post already, but he said "I know the games you open carriers play" then inferred that I was out to harass the officers.
    Then he gave me the song and dance about, "the officer sees you carrying and he doesn't know if you're a good guy or a bad guy", then the officer safety thing.
    I argued with him, that the detention was illegal, and he told me that if I felt my rights were violated I should file a lawsuit. After that I just hung up while he was still talking.

    Funny thing, while officer friendly was chatting, she said she understood why I was carrying, as the Thruway was a terrible neighborhood and she said she wouldn't be caught dead without her firearm off duty. We here know that cops should be the only ones able to defend themselves. LAC only need a cell phone.
    And the cops wonder why the population hates them.
    Last edited by bhthib3381; 10-24-2013 at 07:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!

    walmart corporate policy is to follow state law for carry!!!
    Foia EVERYTHING!!!
    Get everybodies names!!!
    Talk to some Civil rights lawyers!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    I was detained at the store, not arrested. So there are no arrest reports. About the most that I can FOIA is the call from the sheriff to the station, if there was one. Again, the officer went outside and I remained inside with the second officer. I believe he called it in, but I'm not sure. I don't know what else there would be.

    I got the names of the manager and both officers before leaving the store.
    Officer friendly even lent me her pen and a tore a sheet of paper out of her notebook so I could write them down. I think she wishes to be left out of the complaint.

    I doubt a civil rights attorney would have an interest in the case, because I was a moron who left the house without a voice recorder.
    So, I will go to the station tomorrow and talk to someone there about it, but I doubt that it goes very far.

    I have just gone to the other wal mart in Lafayette and purchased batteries for my voice recorder. And I will never leave home without it again.

    The Wal Mart that I had this happen in is the one I go to often. There is always a LEO near the entrance, and they've always been courteous and, while most have noticed the weapon, none have ever given me a second thought.
    I had become complacent about carrying the recorder due to this. Live and learn. Won't catch me asleep again.
    Last edited by bhthib3381; 10-24-2013 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,,

    Arrest is not the measure of a color of law civil rights suit...

    Study Ohare v. mcCally,,, or is it ohare v. Alamagordo.
    Ohare was never arrested, but he got detained, just cause he had a gun!!!!
    He got 21000 dollars!!!

    dont go to the cop shop to ask questions,, dont tip your hand to them that way.
    this is the time for your lawyer, and your FOIA requests...
    Your cop needs to reiterate to the record, that he detained you because of your gun,,,
    Your VERY legal gun!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    I was detained at the store, not arrested.
    LOL That's what they all say. The law is an ass that lawyers ride to work, if it was so easy then everyone could be one.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    I agree, going to the police station will do you no good and will only cause you more grief. Consult an attorney or let it go are your choices at this point. Without a recording you have a tough fight ahead of you I am afraid. Your best bet is to follow up with Wal-Mart and their manager and have WM tell their cops what their actual policy is.
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
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    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

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  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    I was detained at the store, not arrested. So there are no arrest reports. About the most that I can FOIA is the call from the sheriff to the station, if there was one. --snipped--
    Arrest vs detain is a matter of degree. You were not free to leave + color of law. You were greatly inconvenienced and humiliated - your rights were violated.

    There should be field notes, electronic transmissions, etc. You will never know unless you ask for them. Strongly recommend that you speak to an attorney and post no more here w/o approval.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL That's what they all say. The law is an ass that lawyers ride to work, if it was so easy then everyone could be one.
    There is considerable (meaning worth consideration) discussion here on OCDO of just what constitutes arrest/detention. There is at least opinion, if not case law precedence, that a cop using his big-boy voice is sufficient to constitute detention/arrest. IMO I-ANAL detention is in the eye of the beholder; if you were afraid to disobey, if you submitted, then you were detained/arrested.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-24-2013 at 09:33 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    I agree,

    1. Take your recorder next time.

    2. Print and take the Wallmart policy with you (from corporate)

    3. Have a friend go with you (let him/her vidio tape if needed)

    4. Contact a lawyer.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Sir Diealotz's Avatar
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    What a ****** (Officer Unfriendly). Hope you get paid $$$
    Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

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    Don't try to teach the cop ... he's not a good student and your words can be used against you.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Educate through the best mean available - that means with good, solid representation - whether in the legislature or the courts.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You, sir... done did GOOD.

    You maintained your composure.
    You didn't give in to bullying and kept repeating the key phrases, "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?"
    You didn't surrender any unnecessary documents.
    and
    You taught an officer that he is neither a god nor a demigod.

    That's a win for Freedom.


    I wonder if he'll go crying to PoliceOne or Officer.com about how the mean citizen disrespected his "Authoritah"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-24-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You, sir... done did GOOD.

    You maintained your composure.
    You didn't give in to bullying and kept repeating the key phrases, "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?"
    You didn't surrender any unnecessary documents.
    and
    You taught an officer that he is neither a god nor a demigod.

    That's a win for Freedom.
    I was gonna post something along these lines, but why reinvent the wheel...

    +1000!!!

    Oh, btw, please seek out an attorney. It's unfortunate that we have to go to such lengths to enforce the law on so called law enforcement, but it is our duty. If you let them get away with violating your rights, they'll continue to bully.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 10-24-2013 at 01:01 PM.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    I got caught without my voice recorder this morning. I know, never leave the house without it...
    You need to file a records/FOIA request for the training materials the Sheriff's dept uses with regard to the open carry of firearms, Terry, any state ID law, etc. and for the list of students who have attended those courses.

    I'll help you with more if you need it, but that should get their attention.

    If this happens again, give no information, or the bare minimum before you do your records request - don't complain, because a superior intent on protecting his subordinates will make sure that the story covers his officer's hindquarters.

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    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    Funny thing, while officer friendly was chatting, she said she understood why I was carrying, as the Thruway was a terrible neighborhood and she said she wouldn't be caught dead without her firearm off duty.
    I'll bet if there was some compiled data of unlawful OC stops and the economic well-being of a given neighborhood, one would find an inverse correlation between: "number of stops" and "average per capita income." I OC fairly regularly throughout Fairfax and Arlington counties and never have had a LEO treat me unlawfully. Two encounters in the last 6 months: both positive.
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

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    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cirrusly View Post
    I'll bet if there was some compiled data of unlawful OC stops and the economic well-being of a given neighborhood, one would find an inverse correlation between: "number of stops" and "average per capita income." I OC fairly regularly throughout Fairfax and Arlington counties and never have had a LEO treat me unlawfully. Two encounters in the last 6 months: both positive.
    To clarify, I noticed this thread is in Louisiana. I'm speaking of counties in Virginia. However, I would still venture this hypothesis. Just wish I had some definitive data.
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

  18. #18
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    If you were in the front of the Walmart, I am pretty sure there is surveillance recording of your detention and in-public humiliation. Would expect Walmart security to be able to retreive it within 7 days or perhaps 14 days. Don't know how long they would keep it - but would get going on that asap w an attorney.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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    1245A Defender--the case is St John v McColley et al (2009). St John posted an explanation of the entire arrest and court proceedings on this site last year. The arrogance of the department and the individual officers was appalling. He offered the department a chance to calmly discuss the event and apologize--no harm done. They refused and he sued the department--and won. He then offered the individual officers a way out by having them agree to receive education on the Constitution and firearms law--AT HIS EXPENSE!! They refused--so each was sued in his individual capacity.

  20. #20
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    BB62 - I believe that state law for Louisiana allows an exemption for training materials by some agencies. In other words, some agencies do not have to produce this information upon request. This was a cursory reading of the material earlier, but I'll have to check.

    And on that note, I'd like to thank everyone for their advice and encouragement. For the time being, I'll take the sage advice of Grapeshot and not communicate any more about this issue.
    If anyone has any further suggestions or advice, I will continue to monitor the thread.
    Hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    BB62 - I believe that state law for Louisiana allows an exemption for training materials by some agencies. In other words, some agencies do not have to produce this information upon request. This was a cursory reading of the material earlier, but I'll have to check...
    Regardless, you should ask for everything you want. Let them deny you if they like (or dare).

    Don't restrict your questions based on what you think they'll give you. What's the worst they can do - deny you?? THEN you may have grounds for an appeal of their denial.

    Good luck. If you want my input further, please PM me, since you're dropping off the thread I will too.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I went thru a similar situation recently. Everyone is correct, file for copies of everything. Write the incident down in detail. File for the LEOs personnel jacket, you may find a pattern of abuse. You may find out he is a brady cop. Radio trans when he ran your numbers may be interesting considering his attitude.
    Bottom line is, he stepped in it. He knew he was wrong when advised by his partner. He could not back down without "losing face" so he tried to wipe the dog sht off on you. IF he gets away with this by your not complaining, he will do it again. Remember, he works for YOU!
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  23. #23
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    As the current President of La Open Carry Awareness League and a member since LOCAL was founded in 2009 I am very interested in this incident.
    Our organization has worked for several years on getting the word out about the legal right to open carry firearms in Louisiana. We have sent mailers to just about every agency in the state which has armed officers or agents. From all 64 Sheriffs to town Marshals and Constables we have put the word out. From Game Warden to the State Fire Marshal. The deputies have no excuse not to be informed about the legal right to open carry. There was no excuse for the detainment nor should store management been involved by the deputy unless there was a valid complaint from a customer of a person acting in a dangerous or irresponsible manner with a firearm. From your description of the events it's clear you were not there causing any alarm or acting in a manner to cause the management to assume you had any intention of robbing the store.
    What is really disturbing is the dismissive and condescending attitude of the Supervisor you spoke to at the Sheriff's Department who stated "I know the games you open carriers play". What the heck?!? We aren't playing any games with anyone. We are going about our daily errands while legally carrying a means to protect ourselves and our loved ones while in public. To make such a assuming statement to you is disrespectful and indicates that the rank and file deputies are mimicking the attitudes of their superior officers which is certainly negative toward the legal practice of open carry. Further discussion with them would seem a waste of your time.
    Follow the advice of your lawyer. Let us know how it plays out when you are able.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

  24. #24
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    Civil discovery is an entirely different animal than FOIA or its state equivalents. Discovery has more comprehensive coverage and sharper teeth and claws. Lawyer up sooner rather than later. Find a reputable one who'll take the case on contingency.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seigi View Post
    Civil discovery is an entirely different animal than FOIA or its state equivalents. Discovery has more comprehensive coverage and sharper teeth and claws. Lawyer up sooner rather than later. Find a reputable one who'll take the case on contingency.
    Discovery requires that a Cause of Action is in progress. At this point, no such procedure has been initiated.

    Discovery requires that the opposition show/share all of the evidence that they have....

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/discovery
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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